Canadian Federal Politics Thread v5

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

You seem like the type who is worried about issues like blackface.

It is an incredibly bad look for Canada to have these pictures of JT published worldwide. Why would I not be concerned with this?

Are you not concerned about it?

Edit: anyways it’s off topic now. Not the most current #### up, more important things going on.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Firebot

He posted an opinion piece claiming what Moe is proposing is illegal.

It might be illegal, but at the end of the day the politicians won’t be facing any direct consequences for it.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Firebot

The problem is. Now natural gas is charged as 65$ per carbon tonne, while heating oil is charged at 0$ per carbon tonne.

The exemption is ridiculous, but I don't think many natural gas customers would want to trade places. Heating oil is about $1.50/L after the carbon tax is removed. If you convert that to natural gas in terms of heat output, it's the equivalent of paying about $40/GJ for gas.

[Firebot]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

Thanks for the numbers. They definitely had better options than just arbitrarily axing one of them.

In the end, a carbon tonne is a carbon tonne, similar to how a 1 ton of feathers still weights the same as 1 ton of steel. Enough quantities will pollute the same.

Natural gas produces less carbon emissions than heating oil, yet it still being taxed. Liberals have provided no explanation on the disparity.

A home heating with natural gas or electricity pays more carbon tax than a home heating with heating oil which is now 0$, which is basically diesel treated for sulfur. I just would like to see a solid argument as to why this particular reality makes sense.

This is why this screams of political desperation, and has effectively sacrificed the Liberal mantra for salvaging votes. It's also why it's so hard to see an argument for the move because even attempting to argue it counters the entire premise of carbon tax to begin with.

Liberals could have just let the Atlantic provinces continue with their provincial program, and may still have kept the voters instead of this move which is likely to cause the whole program to crash down.

[belsarius]

Originally Posted by opendoor

The exemption is ridiculous, but I don't think many natural gas customers would want to trade places. Heating oil is about $1.50/L after the carbon tax is removed. If you convert that to natural gas in terms of heat output, it's the equivalent of paying about $40/GJ for gas.

And having a lot of elder family living in Newfoundland and knowing how much of their pension goes to heating oil, I actually have a lot of sympathy and understanding for not taxing it. Their options are oil or wood. Sure there is electric pumps, but when the power goes out for a couple of days in a snowstorm that doesn't exactly help.

Seeing people complaining about not getting the same tax easement from natural gas just demonstrates the lack of understanding of the differences in their locations and life positions. I get that it is easy to complain when someone else gets something, but it really isn't comparable. It feels to me a lot like people making $100k a year complaining that they don't get a GST rebate.

But this was a total unforced error on the Liberals part to buy votes. The worst part is that it is just an obvious tactic to buy votes, but now people are using it to question the validity of carbon taxes overall. I see posters on previous pages trying to use it as a gotcha that everything being said about carbon taxation is a lie. In reality, everything is still true today about the CT as it was 8 years ago.. the Liberals aren't admitting that the CT doesn't work, they are admitting they are losing their Atlantic Canada stronghold and buying votes.

And that is the worst part for me. All of the credibility is being buried by partisans wanting to scream that the CT is bad because of this choice by the Liberals, when the choice has nothing to do with the tax itself or how it works.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

It is an incredibly bad look for Canada to have these pictures of JT published worldwide. Why would I not be concerned with this?

Are you not concerned about it?

Edit: anyways it’s off topic now. Not the most current #### up, more important things going on.

Well, Yoho said if something happened far back enough that it doesn’t matter anymore. Agree?

[2Stonedbirds]

Originally Posted by belsarius

All of the credibility is being buried by partisans wanting to scream that the CT is bad because of this choice by the Liberals, when the choice has nothing to do with the tax itself or how it works.

Come on man, all of the credibility was buried by the LPC the second they decided buying votes was more important than a cornerstone of their platform.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by belsarius

Their options are oil or wood. Sure there is electric pumps, but when the power goes out for a couple of days in a snowstorm that doesn't exactly help.

What is your specific point with this comment? If the power goes out for a few days to my home or your home we are screwed as well with our NG furnaces. I can get a bit of heat from my fireplace and from my gas stove but that won't do much for the whole house.

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by Wormius

Well, Yoho said if something happened far back enough that it doesn’t matter anymore. Agree?

Ummm. Not sure where you are going with this.

I guess if you want to discuss something Yoho said you can discuss it with Yoho.

[belsarius]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

What is your specific point with this comment? If the power goes out for a few days to my home or your home we are screwed as well with our NG furnaces. I can get a bit of heat from my fireplace and from my gas stove but that won't do much for the whole house.

My point is that on the Northern Peninsula, losing power for days in the winter can be commonplace. I have never been without power in Alberta for more than 24 hours.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by belsarius

My point is that on the Northern Peninsula, losing power for days in the winter can be commonplace. I have never been without power in Alberta for more than 24 hours.

From a report earlier this month examining the 5 year average reliability, NFLD is the worst in the two metrics but:

Most Newfoundlanders—274,000 of them—are served by Newfoundland Power, which purchases nearly all of its electricity from NLH. Customers experience an average of 5.46 interruptions per year, resulting in 18.24 hours of outages.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by belsarius

And having a lot of elder family living in Newfoundland and knowing how much of their pension goes to heating oil, I actually have a lot of sympathy and understanding for not taxing it. Their options are oil or wood. Sure there is electric pumps, but when the power goes out for a couple of days in a snowstorm that doesn't exactly help.

I don't know, a heat pump with a wood backup is a pretty common setup in areas that are prone to power outages and it would save anyone using oil for heat thousands of dollars every year. And it eliminates the need to use a generator to keep your furnace fan running in outages.

Yeah, sometimes change is slow. But heating oil was gone from heating 34% of residences in Newfoundland 20 years ago to just over 12% now, so I don't see why the remaining ones (beyond a few edge cases) can't do the same in the near future with all the incentives and rebates that exist. And over 30% of people who use oil for heat in Newfoundland already have a wood backup, so it'd be an even easier transition.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

Ummm. Not sure where you are going with this.

I guess if you want to discuss something Yoho said you can discuss it with Yoho.

He’s asking you if you agree. Do you?

And who have you voted for in the past? Just curious but you seem to be skipping this question as well. I’m interested to know.

[Yoho]

Originally Posted by Wormius

Well, Yoho said if something happened far back enough that it doesn’t matter anymore. Agree?

Really grasping at straws now.

[belsarius]

Originally Posted by opendoor

I don't know, a heat pump with a wood backup is a pretty common setup in areas that are prone to power outages and it would save anyone using oil for heat thousands of dollars every year. And it eliminates the need to use a generator to keep your furnace fan running in outages.

Yeah, sometimes change is slow. But heating oil was gone from heating 34% of residences in Newfoundland 20 years ago to just over 12% now, so I don't see why the remaining ones (beyond a few edge cases) can't do the same in the near future with all the incentives and rebates that exist. And over 30% of people who use oil for heat in Newfoundland already have a wood backup, so it'd be an even easier transition.

Oh I agree, but more than just change is slow, change is expensive. The reality is that living on CPP in a 70 year old house that is already set up for oil heating isn't going to be a cheap switch to an electric heater, even with incentives and rebates (which I don't know these specifically, but normally still require the upfront money). It will definitely pay for itself over time.

I am not saying I agree with dropping the tax, just that I recognize and sympathize for their position. Those still relying on heating oil are not doing so because it is the cheapest way to go, but most likely the only way given their means.

And this part I will totally concede to the CT doubters. The tax is just an added cost when there is no other viable alternative, and it can be punitive on those who can't afford the alternatives.

So, with fear of triggering the "light bulb" people in Alberta, I would have much preferred seeing something along the lines of the government actually buying pumps for people instead of creating this fiasco, "this is where the carbon tax money is going, to help reduce emissions!". Even a no interest loan or something to help the cost of transitioning (what exists is good, but you still need upfront money to take advantage).

Just a total fail on the LPC's part.

[belsarius]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

From a report earlier this month examining the 5 year average reliability, NFLD is the worst in the two metrics but:

You really seem hung up on the one line I wrote of an anecdotal situation. I am sure the average isn't too bad, especially considering that 25% of the province lives in one city.

All I am saying is I can sympathize with them because I know that my family, in the area where they live, have these kinds of issues and challenges, and have to still rely on heating oil even though they would rather have a cheaper/better option.

[Firebot]

Originally Posted by opendoor

The exemption is ridiculous, but I don't think many natural gas customers would want to trade places. Heating oil is about $1.50/L after the carbon tax is removed. If you convert that to natural gas in terms of heat output, it's the equivalent of paying about $40/GJ for gas.

The reason why a province like Nova Scotia does not use natural gas is because the infrastructure just isn't there and was never part of their energy solution. People in Atlantic Canada don't use heating oil because they choose to, it's the most viable and sometimes only viable option. Electricity as belsarius has stated is not a reliable heating source in the winter where power outages or brownouts are common which may last days. Anyone who has lived in the Maritimes during icestorms or blizzards can attest to it.


https://www.cer-rec.gc.ca/en/data-an...wbdisable=true

There is totally viable reasons to provide exemption on home heating including natural gas and heating oil in a country where survival in winter is dependent on heat.

Liberals opened a can of worms by forcing ideology and rhetoric over economics and common sense on provinces with limited choices, penalized their own base while stating this is what rural Canadians want, and flip flopped after their polling numbers suffered so drastically they may lose all seats.

It just kills the entire premise of the carbon tax, which in practice has a purpose.

[Nufy]

Originally Posted by belsarius

You really seem hung up on the one line I wrote of an anecdotal situation. I am sure the average isn't too bad, especially considering that 25% of the province lives in one city.

All I am saying is I can sympathize with them because I know that my family, in the area where they live, have these kinds of issues and challenges, and have to still rely on heating oil even though they would rather have a cheaper/better option.

Agree.

My dad still lives in Rural NFLD and uses oil for his heating.

Its expensive enough now that I (gladly) buy his oil for him. I have access to his billing account and transfer funds regularly.

In addition to not being able to afford the change...some houses just don't have the room to allow for a conversion.

A mini split, which has become so popular, will only service one room.

Physically there is not enough room to replace the oil furnace with a heat pump.

What about the rest of the house ?

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by belsarius

You really seem hung up on the one line I wrote of an anecdotal situation. I am sure the average isn't too bad, especially considering that 25% of the province lives in one city.

All I am saying is I can sympathize with them because I know that my family, in the area where they live, have these kinds of issues and challenges, and have to still rely on heating oil even though they would rather have a cheaper/better option.

The comment just seemed to be grasping at straws in an attempt to justify cutting the tax on a specific fuel type. We are either in this carbon tax situation and battle against global warming together and we all contribute equally based on our emissions or we scrap the plan.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by 2Stonedbirds

Come on man, all of the credibility was buried by the LPC the second they decided buying votes was more important than a cornerstone of their platform.

All of this from the actual cut to the rumours of suggesting Liberal MPs in the west would result in equal treatment just blatantly confirms Trudeau and his party have about as much integrity as you'd expect them to have (none). I have little doubt JT would resort to scrapping the entire climate plan if he thinks it will win him another election too.

Heat pumps are nice and probably ideal in more mild climates, but it is hardly a secret that they aren't going to work well in a huge chunk of the country that sees temperatures drop well below levels where these devices can work effectively.