Canadian Federal Politics Thread v5

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Firebot

He stated he would be disappointed if the Liberals axed the carbon tax. He didn't reply on the exemption.

The only thing he wrote about the exemption was a few days ago

Which seems to be political spin.

Commenting about axing the tax in full, versus commenting about the most recent exemption are two completely different things.

Right now he's talking about the ideology of carbon tax and a rant about people with trucks.

I've changed my view a bit since that initial post after hearing some expert views and other posters' comments. Agree that this is a damaging move now.


I think it's come to this for a few reasons, one being that government's should have been advertising heavily the savings of heat pumps and the real world financial impacts of sticking with heating oil. There are plenty of things that should have been done that weren't, and now Liberals are realizing the hurt will be too much(particularly for their election prospects). The other is that technology is only recently catching up. Costs will come down and eventually this will be a no-brainer. If heat pump tech was, say, 5 years ahead of where it was 5 years ago and where it will be in 5 years I think a lot of this would be easier.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

I understand your comment on larger vehicles, however, rural people sometimes require larger vehicles during winter commutes, and some families have more people than can fit into a car. So there is a necessity there. These are a smaller demographic of people, so some will write it off as insignificant. But you seem to have sympathy for them as you stated.

Maybe Alberta and Sask’s solution should be to get exemptions like they are doing in other areas that they want to buy votes?

This is just a perfect example of the stupid choices people make while claiming their isn't one. The bolded is nonsense. Families are smaller than ever, and how many Suburbans did you see driving around in the 80's? Minivans and station wagons hold people and stuff far better than most CUV and SUV's out there. Most SUV's have one fricken' person it them 90% of the time.

https://jalopnik.com/large-trucks-su...ins-1849888478

So any efficiency gains are just eaten up by big vehicles. People have choices, they have made poor ones, so now carbon taxes try to nudge that in a corrective direction. I'm sorry if you don't like that people making poor choices costs them more. I don't feel too bad about it because their poor choices negatively affect me.

Rural people get as bigger carbon tax rebate. Which just got doubled.

[Yamer]

Originally Posted by ThisIsAnOutrage

The valuable part of "what the convoy did" was that it actually got the government's attention and the government's response even attracted some international scrutiny. It takes a protest with that level of impact, and a sustained one, to be heard. 4hrs of chanting on a Sunday afternoon doesn't cut it. It's a blip in the news cycle and then nothing.

And the majority of Canadians and the international community condemned it and view it negatively.

Where's the value in that?

[Regorium]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

Thanks for your response. It wasn’t bait.

I wonder if most purchase related to the carbon tax (EVs, heat pumps, etc) were either subsidized, or would have been made regardless of the carbon tax?

I don’t agree with the government firing out more money to cover those purchases. More government spending might translate to more inflation. Probably turns the whole carbon tax into a bigger mistake.

The math on the payback period for something like upgrading to a heat pump is non-viable without carbon pricing - frankly, natural gas is too cheap here in Alberta. EV's are kind of in-between and at the mercy of oil prices, but an increasing carbon price de-risks your calculations.

Not all purchases are dependent on rebates, but there is definitely a marginal point in there where a number of decisions are being made on carbon pricing. At the current near-insignificant amount of tax, the number of decisions are similarly small, but it was going to go up as we move on.

Now, I know that I can't trust the government to follow through, so my math for any future upgrade will change.

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I've changed my view a bit since that initial post after hearing some expert views and other posters' comments. Agree that this is a damaging move now.


I think it's come to this for a few reasons, one being that government's should have been advertising heavily the savings of heat pumps and the real world financial impacts of sticking with heating oil. There are plenty of things that should have been done that weren't, and now Liberals are realizing the hurt will be too much(particularly for their election prospects). The other is that technology is only recently catching up. Costs will come down and eventually this will be a no-brainer. If heat pump tech was, say, 5 years ahead of where it was 5 years ago and where it will be in 5 years I think a lot of this would be easier.

Thanks for answering regarding the exemption. I believe everyone can agree that it is a dumb move by the Liberals.

Would you consider voting Liberal in the next federal election if the axed the carbon tax completely? Regardless of how your one vote will affect your riding? Or would that be enough for you to vote for another party?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

Thanks for answering regarding the exemption. I believe everyone can agree that it is a dumb move by the Liberals.

Would you consider voting Liberal in the next federal election if the axed the carbon tax completely? Regardless of how your one vote will affect your riding? Or would that be enough for you to vote for another party?

The carbon tax isn't a big enough issue for me to make it a deal breaker on elections. Voting for a party that has zero plan, however, is a non-starter. It's a pretty strong signal they don't follow science and data.

[Doctorfever]

So you might still vote Liberal if they axe the tax, but would not consider a vote for CPC because they will axe the tax?

[CaptainCrunch]

Things get more complex as Scott Moe announces that he will direct Sask Energy to stop collecting the Carbon Tax on Home Heating in the province on Jan 1st if Trudeau doesn't give Sask the same consideration as the Atlantic provinces.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

So you might still vote Liberal if they axe the tax, but would not consider a vote for CPC because they will axe the tax?

I said a plan. Presumably if the carbon tax goes, that won't be the end of it. Now we are just meandering throguh hypotheticals which is a bit pointless when no election is in sight.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Things get more complex as Scott Moe announces that he will direct Sask Energy to stop collecting the Carbon Tax on Home Heating in the province on Jan 1st if Trudeau doesn't give Sask the same consideration as the Atlantic provinces.

Good news, the heating oil tax suspension applies in Saskatchewan, too. Problem solved, Scotty. Make your own carbon plan if you don't like the one the feds have. This isn't complicated.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Good news, the heating oil tax suspension applies in Saskatchewan, too. Problem solved, Scotty. Make your own carbon plan if you don't like the one the feds have. This isn't complicated.

Effectively that is what he is doing.

He is implementing the federal system excluding using it on home heating which is how it’s being applied it Atlantic Canada. I’m not usually a big fan of Moe, especially on the Carbon tax file, but the liberals have undermined the entire system by canceling the tax on an item with clearly better alternative. Mor is forcing the PM to embrace his hypocrisy in court. Moe should directly propose a provicncial plan but then one might ask why didn’t the Atlantic provinces just propose a provincial plan

If the system is being used as a vote buying tool and not a carbon reduction tool then #### them. It has no credibility anymore.

[Doctorfever]

Calls to exempt all forms of home heating.

Conservative Leader Pierre Poilievre is calling on the Liberals to exempt all forms of home heating from the carbon price, after Prime Minister Justin Trudeau announced an exemption for three years that only applies to home heating oil.
The federal government announced last week that it is increasing the carbon price rebate for rural Canadians and lifting the carbon price off home heating oil entirely for the next three years.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/poil...rice-1.6623037

[calgarygeologist]

I'm watching Question Period and Jonathan Wilkinson just said they will implement free heat pumps in Atlantic Canada. That is awfully nice of the Liberals.

[dino7c]

I mean we live in a frozen wasteland during winter, its a slap in the face to have a necessity taxed like a luxury

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

Calls to exempt all forms of home heating.



https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/poil...rice-1.6623037

The problem with that is it completely destroys most of the incentive to improve efficiency and use greener types of heating.


I'd be a fan of having a basic exemption per year for a home. Anything over a certain amount is taxed, and you gradually reduce that amount.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by dino7c

I mean we live in a frozen wasteland during winter, its a slap in the face to have a necessity taxed like a luxury

Hey Dino, we are saving the world. Get with the program. Through Canada’s (well, I guess only the provinces that don’t vote Liberal now?) leadership, China, India, and the developing world will eventually follow suit and climate change will not be an issue.

It’s just the sacrifice we have to make.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

The problem with that is it completely destroys most of the incentive to improve efficiency and use greener types of heating.


I'd be a fan of having a basic exemption per year for a home. Anything over a certain amount is taxed, and you gradually reduce that amount.

The rebate system does this. You are taxed on actual consumption and rebated on relative consumption.

All they needed to do was tax imports and exempt exports and you’d have a beautiful system without significant economic drag.

Now people in Atlantic Canada will be paid to polute. You get your rebates plus you don’t pay into the tax.

[BlackArcher101]

How much does it currently cost an average home in Atlantic Canada to heat it?

[Firebot]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I've changed my view a bit since that initial post after hearing some expert views and other posters' comments. Agree that his is a damaging move now.


I think it's come to this for a few reasons, one being that government's should have been advertising heavily the savings of heat pumps and the real world financial impacts of sticking with heating oil. There are plenty of things that should have been done that weren't, and now Liberals are realizing the hurt will be too much(particularly for their election prospects). The other is that technology is only recently catching up. Costs will come down and eventually this will be a no-brainer. If heat pump tech was, say, 5 years ahead of where it was 5 years ago and where it will be in 5 years I think a lot of this would be easier.

Thanks for the answer and changing your view somewhat, but I feel you are still dodging that the Liberals heavily defended their policies multiple times this year (as I posted in my prior post) despite all evidence of impact and outcries...until it hit their poll so bad they are are risk of a landslide loss. This was not Liberals getting an epiphany about carbon taxes hurting folks too much let's be honest.

Heat pumps is not a carbon efficient solution in itself when in Nova Scotia most of their electricity is still powered by coal (which also has a heavy carbon tax on it). Replacing all this coal power to renewable sources is an expensive task and the cost of this electricity may be even higher. So they will still get hit with carbon tax and higher prices once they go to heating pumps.

Home heating oil is an easy target because it's much more prevalent in Atlantic Canada and the hit is immediately noticeable after the Liberal government told Newfoundland and Labrador, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and PEI to suck it and forced the removal of the provinces' exemptions on home heating oil.

Would you say, that by the Liberals doing this exemption (exemptions that the provinces previously had in place prior to Liberal forcing the matter), that they should review all carbon tax and pause / cancel other aspects that are overly punitive to other jurisdictions? Because they just opened this can of worms.

What incentive would someone have to switch from heating oil to heat pumps when they will pay less over 3 years now as a result of the exemption? See where this falls apart? Well here comes the free heat pumps to Atlantic Canadians! A heat pump installation can cost 5000$ to 15000$ (and you can be sure Liberals will spend more through administration). That's awfully nice of you as an Albertan to provide your taxpayer money to Atlantic Canada so they can get free heat pumps while you continue to pay carbon tax while having less of a carbon footprint.

I just want to see how you will still attempt to spin this somehow.

[you&me]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

This is just a perfect example of the stupid choices people make while claiming their isn't one. The bolded is nonsense. Families are smaller than ever, and how many Suburbans did you see driving around in the 80's? Minivans and station wagons hold people and stuff far better than most CUV and SUV's out there. Most SUV's have one fricken' person it them 90% of the time.

https://jalopnik.com/large-trucks-su...ins-1849888478

So any efficiency gains are just eaten up by big vehicles. People have choices, they have made poor ones, so now carbon taxes try to nudge that in a corrective direction. I'm sorry if you don't like that people making poor choices costs them more. I don't feel too bad about it because their poor choices negatively affect me.

Hey, I genuinely need my massive SUV... Though sometimes it feels like the reason for that might tie back in to the "stupid choices people make"