[Rumour] Friedman: Flames and Hanifin have made progress on contract extension

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Depth is completely overrated on this board

You win with stars . Keep acquiring stars to win . Vegas traded depth over and over to acquire stars .

It is a lot easier to replace depth then to find stars and superstars

Stone and Eichel?

Alex Pieterangelo from free agency?

Vegas won because of the depth they had on top of those guys.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Yeah but at the time he was a 35 goal scorer who we would have had to trade away.

The point stands that the extensions would have depleted the depth of the team.

Zadorov, Mangiapane all gone and we also needed to add to the backend.

The team would likely be in the same situation with those two and as said by dino Johnny has taken a step back which isn't surprising.

SO instead of 10 threads of people complaining about Huberdeau it would be Gaudreau.

Gullfoss would be throwing tomatoes at Tkachuk for getting Sutter fired.

So your point is this team was trash regardless? Is Gaudreau going to struggle to the same extent if he was still playing with Tkachuk and Lindholm?


My point is this team would be better had they kept their superstars instead of the guys they brought in to try and replace them. When your franchise players leave it is time to rebuild. The management of this team made the mistake thinking their depth was elite and would continue to carry them after swapping out stars.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

So your point is this team was trash regardless? Is Gaudreau going to struggle to the same extent if he was still playing with Tkachuk and Lindholm?


My point is this team would be better had they kept their superstars instead of the guys they brought in to try and replace them. When your franchise players leave it is time to rebuild. The management of this team made the mistake thinking their depth was elite and would continue to carry them after swapping out stars.

Well the team was bad in the bubble and those two guys are key culprits of that bad season. Bad the season prior to that. Fell of a cliff during our 50 win season prior to that after a hot start.

So yeah with a depleted team what makes you think we would have been better. We are likely in the same situation except we would have Tkachuk.

Johnnys contract is untradable. It would be the same if we was here at 10.5

They should have rebuilt but no point in getting upset about that when that has never been the mandate.

We would be in the same situation if they stayed, maybe a but better because of Tkachuk but who knows how his play would be if he stayed. It was up and down for them.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Unless this season turns around by some miracle, a rebuild is definitely in the works. There are no top-level prospects coming. Calgary is not an attractive UFA destination. There is no fixing this by 'continuing to try and win' with what they have.


This team is not as shy of rebuilding as some people make them out to be. It isn't an organization run by a bunch of morons, even if this season was predicted by many. I can understand why they took the shot this year, thinking that things may be different. It is a gamble with millions and millions of bucks on the line.



Now it is appearing evident that it was a bad gamble to take. I don't for a second assume that ownership and management can look at this team and say: "What can we do to get ourselves back on the track this season.. or next season."



I also think that, moving forward, the Flames become more 'ruthless'. This isn't an attractive UFA destination - not until they go on a couple of deep playoff runs anyway, something that they haven't done since '04. So throw that out of the water. The mandate was to pay guys fairly on their deals. The UFA market has generally been awful for the Flames. So, be ruthless. "Sell" more often. When you have a piss poor season between good seasons, sell some players. Give yourself some cap hit, bottom out a little deeper and get a better pick. Take it as "Not our year", and regroup for next year.


Had they done that last season instead of trying to (and failing) to make the playoffs, this organization would have been 'x' amount better off today.


Do that every season. When you are rolling, keep rolling. When you are dipping, keep dipping. Eventually you accumulate enough talent and experience to really make some noise. This 'compete at all costs' makes little sense in the long run. Treliving's tenure started driving me nuts with his reach on UFAs and constant bleeding of picks. He sort of had the right idea at first, like when he sold Glencross, Hudler, and Russell. Be ruthless, because you are not in an average market that attracts an average number of UFAs. You are in a market that you constantly have to overpay for UFAs anyway. Treat your players well and sign them to solid deals, especially the players you identify as your core.


At this point, I would trade all the upcoming UFAs during this season. Sign nobody. There isn't enough talent on the team to win. it makes no sense to sign anybody to an extension. Flames have to rebuild for the next 2 seasons minimum. The good thing is that they do have a lot of decent prospects. They are just missing those high-end guys - the difference makers on teams. All the Flames have organizationally are essentially replacement players for who we have on the roster today. That's not really setting yourself up for improvement tomorrow.


I do think the Flames will rebuild, unless this season turns around by some miracle. I actually don't think they have a choice any longer.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Stone and Eichel?

Alex Pieterangelo from free agency?

Vegas won because of the depth they had on top of those guys.

Yeah Vegas would be an argument for depth not against

They were the depth, Oilers were the Stars with bums team

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Well the team was bad in the bubble and those two guys are key culprits of that bad season. Bad the season prior to that. Fell of a cliff during our 50 win season prior to that after a hot start.

So yeah with a depleted team what makes you think we would have been better. We are likely in the same situation except we would have Tkachuk.

Johnnys contract is untradable. It would be the same if we was here at 10.5

They should have rebuilt but no point in getting upset about that when that has never been the mandate.

We would be in the same situation if they stayed, maybe a but better because of Tkachuk but who knows how his play would be if he stayed. It was up and down for them.

Tkachuk is considered a top 5 player in the league. You are probably right about Johnny he was a very up and down player who lacked consistency. The top line looked really good whenever they were together and their chemistry was undeniable. I just don’t think they would be near the same spot. Huberdeau and Kadri are so awful that taking those 2 and some depth like Mangiapane or Zadorov are not on par with having Gaudreau and Tkachuk here.

There is no way you can convince me we would be in the same situation with those 2 vs Huberdeau and Kadri.

[dino7c]

You would also have to take Weegar and something else off the roster to make the cap work.

Flames would be better but it's debatable if they would be very good. Not sure if being slightly better would be a good thing atm

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Tkachuk is considered a top 5 player in the league. You are probably right about Johnny he was a very up and down player who lacked consistency. The top line looked really good whenever they were together and their chemistry was undeniable. I just don’t think they would be near the same spot. Huberdeau and Kadri are so awful that taking those 2 and some depth like Mangiapane or Zadorov are not on par with having Gaudreau and Tkachuk here.

There is no way you can convince me we would be in the same situation with those 2 vs Huberdeau and Kadri.

So you would want a higher paid Kadri here in Johnny?

He probably wouldn't be as bad, but he also would not be the 115 point player he was. He is back down.

1 line teams don't usually win, and when that 1 line gets shutdown easily and invisible in the playoffs it doesn't matter really?

Tkachuk is a top 5 player now after his season in Florida for sure. I was wrong about him, but again a lot of questions going into last season if he could repeat what he did because of his poor skating.

Huberdeau and Kadri are having a tough time because look at the teams they came from? They played at a pace that this team has never come close to playing.

The Avs and Panthers played at a frenetic pace. Even Vegas plays that way.

We are playing a really slow game.

[Torture]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

I also think that, moving forward, the Flames become more 'ruthless'. This isn't an attractive UFA destination - not until they go on a couple of deep playoff runs anyway, something that they haven't done since '04. So throw that out of the water. The mandate was to pay guys fairly on their deals. The UFA market has generally been awful for the Flames. So, be ruthless. "Sell" more often. When you have a piss poor season between good seasons, sell some players. Give yourself some cap hit, bottom out a little deeper and get a better pick. Take it as "Not our year", and regroup for next year.

I sure hope you're right but I don't know that we've seen anything to indicate that's how the Flames will be managed vs the "sneak into the playoffs and anything can happen" approach.

[Hockey_Ninja]

The Twitter insider with a bomb

https://twitter.com/user/status/1719009266777096660

[Hockey_Ninja]

This is also an interesting tweet…spoiled for language

Spoiler!

https://twitter.com/user/status/1719014238151475424

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

I also think that, moving forward, the Flames become more 'ruthless'. This isn't an attractive UFA destination - not until they go on a couple of deep playoff runs anyway, something that they haven't done since '04. So throw that out of the water. The mandate was to pay guys fairly on their deals. The UFA market has generally been awful for the Flames. So, be ruthless. "Sell" more often. When you have a piss poor season between good seasons, sell some players. Give yourself some cap hit, bottom out a little deeper and get a better pick. Take it as "Not our year", and regroup for next year.

I certainly don't disagree that this team has been shy of rebuilding......too shy, so that's not my point when I say what I'm about to say. And I also think that this team hit a cross roads when both Johnny and Tkachuk wanted out 2 seasons ago (and maybe even before that when Mony injuries prevented him from being the player he was) - they chose reload vs. rebuild. A full season and a month removed from that decision, and it certainly looks and feels like it was definitely the wrong one.

But I think what you are preaching about ruthlessness between seasons isn't the right approach either. Building a winner, and more importantly, giving that winner time to find it's way is important. The path to success for MOST teams is far from linear. You need to have some belief in your group, and let them grow. If I think about the version of the Flames that was intact for the 5 years prior to last years offseason, it was driven by: Monahan, Johnny, Tkachuk, Lindholm - with change ups on the back end.

That group had massive ups and downs in regular seasons, and little playoff success. But I think it would be fair to suggest, that giving that group time to try and pull it off, with tweaks to the roster vs. burning it down was the right move. Frustrating for fans to see the swings, but they were showing signs that they COULD potentially get things done. Its so easy to say what ifs, but I do wonder how much more success they would have had if one of these two things were true - Mony stayed healthy, or Bennett ended up closer to a top 6 forward with us (not wanting to debate why he didn't). My point isn't to say they were unlucky, they got lots of luck too that helped them have whatever success they had, my point is the difference between them doing something special and what they did accomplish (which amounts to not much of anything) is razor thin.

Being too ruthless every year, will undoubtedly result in a never ending cycle of rebuild and no success. Building a team is very hard, and on some level, you have to take your shot with the group you have after you've invested in growing from the ground up the way the Flames did with that group post 2014.

All that said, it sure does feel like it's time to start the growth process again for sure.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Hockey_Ninja

This is also an interesting tweet…

https://twitter.com/user/status/1719014238151475424

Is he saying Bean is the problem?

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by TOfan

I don’t disagree.

Again, I’m not an economist so I don’t know how things stack up today vs 2014. That said, Calgary isn’t the only market that is seeing a drop in attendance. I think I saw daily faceoff post that Montreal, Vancouver,Edmonton, Winnipeg, and Calgary 5 out of 7 Canadian teams) are undersold this season.

I don't know where you saw that article but Vancouver, Montreal and Edmonton have been at or within a hair of sellouts all season so far.

[CalgaryFan1988]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Is he saying Bean is the problem?

Sounds like it and after watching the clip last week I can understand his train of thought.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Is he saying Bean is the problem?

Yes. He's saying Burke had balls, and told ownership what needed to be done. And - importantly - they let him do it. And he's saying Bean is a yes man, so that won't happen now.

[Enoch Root]

I think it is foolish to paint things so black and white. But I have to say, I don't entirely disagree, in the sense that I don't have a tremendous amount of confidence that Bean and Maloney would allow aggressive changes.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Yes. He's saying Burke had balls, and told ownership what needed to be done. And - importantly - they let him do it. And he's saying Bean is a yes man, so that won't happen now.

He should be going after Maloney if anything. Bean is a weird target and diminishes his 'insiderrrrrr' status lol.

[Torture]

I mean, I'd say that's 50/50 on ownership and on the org's leadership/bean.

Ownership hired the yes man. Ownership creates the environment where you "don't say the R word" and rewards yes-men.
Should we have a President (or whatever his title is) that can push back and is confident enough to say what needs to be done, of course. But maybe ownership could take a look in the mirror as well at the environment they create and whether they're actually allowing the people they hired to do the job..

Flames have been a mediocre organization for a longer time than Bean has been around.

[Ashasx]

If the reason why we've been spinning our wheels is because managers have been too afraid to tell Edwards... my good god