[PGT] Flames lose 3-0 to Blues. The 'they'll never score again' edition

[Ferarri]

This team is broken on so many different levels and we are starting to see the cracks at every point of the organization.

From a players standpoint you have someone like Zadorov publicly calling out the effort of the team and questioning what excuses will be used now. He's obviously aware of character issues in the room and the level of frustration he shared with the media is probably just the tip of the iceberg. It's refreshing to hear his take but it certainly begs the question of dissention in the room.

Coaching has been mediocre at best and clearly seems that this position was downgraded from last year (with the exception of removing the negative energy of Darryl). Watching Huska's presser last night made me realize that he's a puppet to this group. Barn Burner alluded to it as well when they said he's paralyzed to play the role of tough guy because of the circumstances of last year. He was walking on egg shells last night when critiquing Kadri and Huberdeau's game. Who knows what's happening behind closed doors but you can sense he's forced into the role of good cop. Without the ability to be a strong figure I would question why an internal hire was made for this group considering what transpired last season.

The management team doubled down on this group and actually bought the narrative that toxicity and negativity was the main issue with this group. It's frightening to know that a bunch of hockey minded experts (some who have played the game before) couldn't see past the teams warts and lack of skill. We invested in people who continue to believe in this core as demonstrated by multiple reports that they are trying to secure Lindholm and Hanafin long term.

Finally the biggest issue of all is with ownership. When your representative is John Bean who openly chastised the media for suggesting a rebuild then you know you're in trouble. His condescending smug nature certainly demonstrates a lack of respect for fans of this team. It's hard to support a team that is so delusional in it's thinking that they are not even allowed to use the 'R' word. Absolutely pathetic and completely tone deaf. That presser that he did with Maloney soured my view of the organization and made me question why I invest financially in this team.

It's hard to be positive about the future when there is so many things wrong with this organization starting at the top and trickling its way down.

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

First of all the trade market thing is an excuse. There's no gun to Conroy's head until the trade deadline which is when the market will be the best. Second of all you are missing the point of my posts as I never brought up any trades. Conroy re-signed Backlund and is trying to re-sign Lindholm and Hanifin. He's trying to keep together the team he helped Brad build that's clearly not working. This is what happens when you don't shake up management or coaching. They promoted from within which means we are getting a lot of the same mentality running the team that has got them to where they are today.

To an extent, but Edwards makes the rules that these guys are playing by. And those rules are pretty restrictive and in conflict with the situation they've found themselves in.

If Conroy was given the green light/autonomy to do whatever he felt was right given the outlook of the team, we probably would have fewer concerns with him. And fewer gripes with Treliving (he might still be the GM).

They have to play the impossible game of "make this team playoffs competitive now" with a poorly constructed roster, several unmovable contracts, being a less desirable location and teams who know your situation and want to take advantage of it.

It's just not as simple as them being a group of incompetent guys promoting from within and that being the sole source of the team's problems.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by D as in David

Isn't that what Sutter told us Huberdeau was doing last year during that game?

Last year Huberdeau was giving an effort, but this year most of the team is.

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

As for the team itself, I think redemption for this group must start with Kadri and Huberdeau looking themselves in the mirror and putting whatever differences they have with their teammates behind them and deciding to be professionals who have pride again.

Best players have to be the best players. Until we're at that point where we can say this is true, the outcome won't change.

Every successful team needs a few guys who can be relied upon to make a difference. Right now no one is stepping up to be that. But it's unfair to ask that of guys who don't have the talent or ability. So it's up to the ones that we signed to hefty contracts with 115 and 87 point seasons under their belts.

[D as in David]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

Last year Huberdeau was giving an effort, but this year most of the team is.

Maybe Huberdeau has more roughage in his diet this year and less effort is required for his dumps?

[868904]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

The way to combat what you think is a false-narrative isn’t to come up with a new, equally false one.

Markstrom had 8 games last year better than his best game this year. The problem wasn’t that he never played well, it’s that he had too many games where he was bad and not enough where he was just good enough. Conversely, he had 10 games last year where he was worse than his worst game this year.

The “structure” that Sutter had allowed for a ton of horrible opportunities against as well. As you alluded to, the team last year was also playing a structure most of them had played for over 100 games, and now they’re playing one many of them haven’t played in years (if at all). It takes time.

They don’t look good. Markstrom does look marginally better on average. But Sutter’s problems extended far past the system he employed, so I’m not sure pointing to the success implementation of that system alone as reason he wasn’t the problem makes any sense at all.

No team locks down like the 2004 Flames anymore. All teams give up high danger chances. Markstrom was not making enough saves last year. Markstrom was terrible last year. Markstrom has given up some softies this year, but is still way better than he was last year.

As "bad" as you want to say Sutter's system was last year, that was still a 93 point team. Two better games from Markstrom and the Flames make the playoffs.

Sutter's system was fine, goaltending failed the team last year. The "toxicity" of Sutter or the "snowflakiness of the players", depending on what side of the fence you sit on, is another major factor for the struggles last year, maybe if they all got along, they would've been a 100 point team. In spite of all that, the team was still right there, despite not having any goaltending and a whole lot of bad bounces. The system and structure was the only reason they were even close, cause the goaltending and the offfense sure wasn't what got them to 93 points.

[Teroy]

I'm tired of hearing it's the coaching; it's the system; it's the wrong group of guys playing with Huberdeau. When a line of players are on the ice there is no such thing as a set system. There's no, "you go there and do this and I'll go here etc." because the other team isn't going to cooperate. Some of you make it sound like a chess game where each player can only do certain moves. It's a game where talented players make it up as they go along. Unfortunately, this team doesn't have the talented players. When you have players who are making 10.5 million, they are supposed to be the ones driving the play. This is bs that we don't have players fast enough to suit Huberdeau's game. Makes one think he's some kind of speed ball. He isn't.
Ownership of this team isn't interested in winning. Their only interest is in making money. The longer this team fills the building, the longer this mentality will continue. Maybe, with the latest attendance figures, ownership will begin to see the writing on the wall. Wasn't there an agreement to keep the team in Calgary for a set period of time in exchange for your tax dollars to build a new arena? Maybe losing money during this period will drive the ownership to sell and hopefully someone will buy the team who gives a sh*t.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by bax

It’s really strange. It’s not just his 115 point season either. In his last 4 seasons in Florida he put up 346 points in 286 games. That’s a 1.2 PPG pace averaging 99 points per season.

I don’t know what the issue is, but it’s hard to believe a Flames jersey instantly turned him into a 40-50 point player.

Again, I think everyone is paying attention to the wrong stat-line here. We shouldn’t be looking at Huberdeau’s regular season numbers since we don’t play Florida’s brand of hockey. Rather, we should be looking at his playoff statistics. That’s the guy we should be comparing him to since that’s the type of game we play out here.

If everyone wants something to analyze and dissect, find out why he went from a 1.44 ppg regular season to a 0.5 ppg playoffs in 2022 or why he went from scoring 10 points in 6 games vs TBL in one post season to only 2 points vs in a sweep vs TBL the next year. It’ll probably be the same answer as to why he’s been struggling here instead of blaming the Flames’ coach’s and systems. It’s not really what’s wrong with us, it should be more about what he’s not not doing instead.



Personally, I still point my finger at management though, all of em: John Bean, Don Maloney, Brad Treliving, Craig Conroy, all the AGMs, pro scouts and etc. They have so many advisors and executives in one room, with all those years of experience and not even one could see that Huberdeau was destined to fail with this group? Not one dissenting opinion? Not one guy questioned whether we should re-sign him? Hubes doesn’t play Flames style hockey, playoff style hockey. He excels in the exact opposite style which is in Florida where he should’ve stayed. I said it at the time of the trade that the target should’ve been Carter Verhaeghe instead. That’s a guy who plays Flames’ style hockey and there’s no doubt in my mind he would’ve popped here.

[FlamesAddiction]

At what point does Huberdeau become responsible for Huberdeau? Just maybe he actually is the problem at this point.

[Paulie Walnuts]

I wonder if the trade did do a number on his confidence.

Star players hardly ever change teams in the NHL, and 3 changed teams last offseason 2 by choice.

When they do it hardly ever works out. Only player I can think of that has actually worked out right now is Tavares.

The problem is not an easy fix they need to ride out the season and see what happens. If we start rolling awesome, if we don't awesome.

Only way to really get star players it to draft them, and we did that but they didn't want to be here.

So here we are.

Its easy to look back and say they probably should have done the Carolina trade right now, because the names Huberdeau and Weegar are super sexy, but sometimes you have to do things that might be please everyone.

It's really a lost opportunity. We had the chance to start fresh and rid ourselves of Sutter before he became a problem.

The constant line juggling, and not allowing the defence to skate Huska is starting to look like he wont last long.

[Ped]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

No true Flames fan should be taking joy in Huberdeau or Kadri's struggles right now, any fan should hope those players are both on pace for 100 points.

But certain fans are celebrating their struggles because then they get to say "see I was right" and to me that's what's embarassing.

And it's not just Huberdeau or Kadri. People wanted to do that with Bennett, people were doing it with Monahan ("should have traded him, he's useless") and even Gaudreau at times. And then he ironic part is they are also the first ones to moan about how those guys are gone now and pine for those players.

They just take joy in complaining about the team and then trying to act like they were right or had some grand prognostication that came true.

When really most fans can see this team has flaws, but as a fan you should at least still be cheering for the team to have some level of success. If even at just the individual level to raise a players trade value.

While I appreciate your viewpoint, I think you're kind of lumping in all those posters together. People's definition of "true fans" are always different and I don't really think it's something you can define.


Sure, there are posters who revel in the negative. But there are also posters who probably just think that the direction of this team is all wrong, and there will be no meaningful success until that direction changes. And likely, the direction doesn't change unless the team completely craps the bed.


Think of Canucks fans during the Benning years ( and still dealing with the decisions he made) or Oilers fans during the Chiarelli years. Bad decision after bad decision after bad decision, so the only way to improve is for everyone to get fired and start anew - and even then, if your ownership keeps the same mandate, what do you do?

Sometimes hoping for the worst is the only way fans can see there to be a needed change (in their minds) to set a franchise in the right direction. In the meantime, hoping for a few meaningless minor victories that don't help in the long run, is pointless.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Again, I think everyone is paying attention to the wrong stat-line here. We shouldn’t be looking at Huberdeau’s regular season numbers since we don’t play Florida’s brand of hockey. Rather, we should be looking at his playoff statistics. That’s the guy we should be comparing him to since that’s the type of game we play out here.

If everyone wants something to analyze and dissect, find out why he went from a 1.44 ppg regular season to a 0.5 ppg playoffs in 2022 or why he went from scoring 10 points in 6 games vs TBL in one post season to only 2 points vs in a sweep vs TBL the next year. It’ll probably be the same answer as to why he’s been struggling here instead of blaming the Flames’ coach’s and systems. It’s not really what’s wrong with us, it should be more about what he’s not not doing instead.



Personally, I still point my finger at management though, all of em: John Bean, Don Maloney, Brad Treliving, Craig Conroy, all the AGMs, pro scouts and etc. They have so many advisors and executives in one room, with all those years of experience and not even one could see that Huberdeau was destined to fail with this group? Not one dissenting opinion? Not one guy questioned whether we should re-sign him? Hubes doesn’t play Flames style hockey, playoff style hockey. He excels in the exact opposite style which is in Florida where he should’ve stayed. I said it at the time of the trade that the target should’ve been Carter Verhaeghe instead. That’s a guy who plays Flames’ style hockey and there’s no doubt in my mind he would’ve popped here.

I agree with most of what you say here, but there’s no reason to believe Verhaeghe was available. Florida used this deal to get rid of two guys who didn’t fit into their plans going forward. But judging by the other deals that were rumoured to be offered, the Flames didn’t have a whole lot of choice. Florida’s offer was the best return they were going to get.

The bad call was signing Huberdeau to the extension before he had played a single game. And that was a desperate effort to change the narrative about Calgary being a laughingstock that nobody wanted to play for.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I agree with most of what you say here, but there’s no reason to believe Verhaeghe was available. Florida used this deal to get rid of two guys who didn’t fit into their plans going forward. But judging by the other deals that were rumoured to be offered, the Flames didn’t have a whole lot of choice. Florida’s offer was the best return they were going to get.

The bad call was signing Huberdeau to the extension before he had played a single game. And that was a desperate effort to change the narrative about Calgary being a laughingstock that nobody wanted to play for.

The funny thing was is that a lot of Treliving critics were saying right before that that UNLESS he got a long term deal from Huberdeau and Weegar, the trade was automatically a failure.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The funny thing was is that a lot of Treliving critics were saying right before that that UNLESS he got a long term deal from Huberdeau and Weegar, the trade was automatically a failure.

The real mistake was letting the Tkachuk and Guadreau situation get to where it was through a combination of terrible coaching hires and cap space management. I get why he signed Huberdeau and Weegar, who knew Huberdeau would suck so much. Weegar can still be moved at least

[D as in David]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I agree with most of what you say here, but there’s no reason to believe Verhaeghe was available. Florida used this deal to get rid of two guys who didn’t fit into their plans going forward. But judging by the other deals that were rumoured to be offered, the Flames didn’t have a whole lot of choice. Florida’s offer was the best return they were going to get.

The bad call was signing Huberdeau to the extension before he had played a single game. And that was a desperate effort to change the narrative about Calgary being a laughingstock that nobody wanted to play for.

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The funny thing was is that a lot of Treliving critics were saying right before that that UNLESS he got a long term deal from Huberdeau and Weegar, the trade was automatically a failure.

Originally Posted by Bonded

The real mistake was letting the Tkachuk and Guadreau situation get to where it was through a combination of terrible coaching hires and cap space management. I get why he signed Huberdeau and Weegar, who knew Huberdeau would suck so much. Weegar can still be moved at least

No wonder GM's never get it right; especially Flames' GM's. There's always something wrong about any move taken or not taken.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Well what hurt that Johnny and Matthew situation was their play.

They sucked for for 2 years, the fans, media everyone was sour on them.

Would you have signed them in the 21 offseason to extensions? They tried to get Johnny done but his play did not meet what he wanted.

It was a perfect storm that hit us that offseason. Perfect in sending us into shambles.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by D as in David

No wonder GM's never get it right; especially Flames' GM's. There's always something wrong about any move taken or not taken.

That’s why they get paid millions but Tre should have been canned rather than being a lame duck that was forced to hire Sutter.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Well what hurt that Johnny and Matthew situation was their play.

They sucked for for 2 years, the fans, media everyone was sour on them.

Would you have signed them in the 21 offseason to extensions? They tried to get Johnny done but his play did not meet what he wanted.

It was a perfect storm that hit us that offseason. Perfect in sending us into shambles.

The issue with Tkachuk was crappy cap management that capped the number he could sign for. Frolik and Neal made a long term deal almost impossible

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Bonded

The issue with Tkachuk was crappy cap management that capped the number he could sign for. Frolik and Neal made a long term deal almost impossible

Well, that plus the number he wanted looked too high at the time anyway. I suspect he wanted $9.5m x 6 years. He looked good, but hadn't produced at that level at the time. So he got a 3 year deal where he was the higest paid Flame, made $9M the last year and was guaranteed another year (at least) at $9M.

[NegativeSpace]

I don't know how we can blame coaching for this start. Most people who are complaining about issues on this board seem to be echoed by the coach. The change is system is not the problem here. These are the same star players as last year and it's the same issues scoring - different coach then. The coach saw the terrible effort last night and said so in the post-game presser.