[PGT] Flames lose to Wings 6-2

[Huntingwhale]

Originally Posted by Dion

The Flames are going to struggle all season as a middle of the league team. We don't have the elite talent to take us to the next level and must rely on a team effort to win games.

Offering Lindholm and Hannifan extensions would be a mistake IMO. We already have Huberdeau and Khadri on retirement contracts where their best years are behind them. We need to acquire some young talent or draft picks to grow with some of the youth we have in this lineup.

The start of the season so far hasn't been a surprise for me.

Not surprising at all. It starts with a meddling owner that refuses to rebuild. Love Conroy, but he's the yes-man Murray wanted and as long as he refuses to rebuild, Conroy's hand are ultimately tied.

You get what you get when you go bargain bin hunting for a coach. I swore after Sutter was hired last time that I was fed up with the team failing to hire established NHL caliber coaches. Never again. I wish Huska the best, but he'll take a while to get the team's system down pact, if ever.

Kadri...woof. Mason Raymond, Brouwer, Neal should never even be mentioned in the same breath. This contract is...bad. Shades of a 33+ year old Iggy being expected to regain his youth of 10 years prior. Kadri is what he is; an aging vet on year 2/7 of his contract. Ouch. Just...ouch.

Can keep listing things out, but ultimately this is a middling team that will be strugglng all season long to keep their head above water most nights. Just have to hope it all comes together at some point. At least Markstrom looks great again. Hope to see the goalie situation rectified and Wolf brought up sooner than later.

[CroCop]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

Eye tests are notably reliable.

Last time I checked hockey scouts still go to games to watch players. If any analytics suggest Huberdeau has been dominating hockey games in any way they would be wrong. The only area he’s been consistent at is losing puck battles being soft as puppy poo.

[Wastedyouth]

Originally Posted by dirk diggler

sure lets go with analytics. Huberdeau is clearly a superstar. What we see means nothing. When i see a player like Makar/Mcdavid, my eyes are decieving me, average at best. Thanks for your insight

You see what you want to see.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Doesn’t matter who the GM is - this team will not rebuild until ownership changes its attitude towards the franchise.

Can't wait to open up the new arena in 2027 with the Flames featuring top forwards of 37 year old Kadri, 34 year old Huberdeau, 32 year old Lindholm, etc. I can't imagine how excited fans will be to shell out more money for seats to see these guys and their eternal search for chemistry together.

[dirk diggler]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Can't wait to open up the new arena in 2027 with the Flames featuring top forwards of 37 year old Kadri, 34 year old Huberdeau, 32 year old Lindholm, etc. I can't imagine how excited fans will be to shell out more money for seats to see these guys and their eternal search for chemistry together.

They will have a new coach or two by then and will be learning the system but dont worry with 10 games left in the season, it will all click and they will play themselves out of a lottery position. Flames way

[CroCop]

I think the answer for Kadri and Huberdeau would be LTIR basically forever.
10 obviously has a substantial groin problem and 91 has a serious heart issue.
Park them but pay them and start over.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by dino7c

to be fair Sutter said the same thing about talent the year before and every other year...every team he has ever coached "sucked"...its was part of the motivation

Yeah the "sharpest mind in hockey" used the same schtick all of 21/22 even after guys hit 100 and in the playoffs talking about having to use shot volume to win and we have no skill.

He didn't even say they are elite until they left and it was mild, and he was taking shots at Tkachuk as well but to tbf it was back and forth.

Its hilarious to see a bunch of people cheering on the team to fail all offseason and now just so they can say precious Sutter was right.

[Wastedyouth]

Originally Posted by CroCop

Last time I checked hockey scouts still go to games to watch players. If any analytics suggest Huberdeau has been dominating hockey games in any way they would be wrong. The only area he’s been consistent at is losing puck battles being soft as puppy poo.

Huberdeau has generated 20 High Danger Chances for. Top in the league has 25.

He is top 10 (tied for 8th) in the league.

1 behind Eichel.

2 behind Draisatl.

4 behind Kucherov.

1 ahead of Crosby.

2 ahead of Debrincat

6 ahead of Nathan Mackinnon.

7 ahead of Connor McDavid.

[SuperMatt18]

Huberdeau had been fine all season before yesterday...yesterday was easily his worst game.

And I still think that even then the -4 is probably a bit unfair for that whole line yesterday. That line allowed 7 shots against at 5v5, and 4 were goals against...when you have a .429 save percentage on ice you're going to look like you had a bad day.

Also I'm going to give the coach some blame...exact same thing as Sutter did last year...shake up the lines just when they are starting to show chemistry after 5 games.

Huberdeau-Lindholm-Mangiapane had been building chemistry and had strong underlying numbers.
Ruzikca-Kadri-Dube looked good against Columbus (although I don't like Kadri and Dube together)
Coleman-Backlund-Coronato started to look better as well.
Greer-Sharangovich-Duehr had looked good all year (although I'd get trying to find a bigger role for Sharangovich).

Instead they went with:

Ruzicka-Lindholm-Coronato - put our three best finishers on one line?
Huberdeau-Kadri-Dube - think anybody could see this line having defensive issues
Coleman-Backlund-Mangiapane - tried and true
Greer-Sharangovich-Duehr - if you're going to shake up lines at least fine a bigger role for Sharangovich.

That top 6 shake up was just ill advised from the start and Detroit took advantage of it.

In 40 minutes at 5v5 Huberdeau-Lindholm-Mangiapane were:

Corsi For: 58.9% (53 For - 37 Against)
Scoring Chances For: 65.2% (30 For - 16 Against)
High Danger For: 73.3% (11 For - 4 Against)
xGF: 58.2% (2.06 For - 1.48 Against)
GF: 60% (3 For - 2 Against)

That is the making of a good top line. They had great underlying metrics and had produced at an okay rate. No need to break that line up at all and just a ridiculous move.

The only change they needed to make was getting Dube off of Kadri's wing and putting Sharangovich there...

Huberdeau-Lindholm-Mangiapane
Coleman-Backlund-Coronato
Ruzicka - Kadri - Shargangovich
Dube - Zary - Duehr

Would love to see that.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Huberdeau had been fine all season before yesterday...yesterday was easily his worst game.

And I still think that even then the -4 is probably a bit unfair for that whole line yesterday. That line allowed 7 shots against at 5v5, and 4 were goals against...when you have a .429 save percentage on ice you're going to look like you had a bad day.

Also I'm going to give the coach some blame...exact same thing as Sutter did last year...shake up the lines just when they are starting to show chemistry after 5 games.

Huberdeau-Lindholm-Mangiapane had been building chemistry and had strong underlying numbers.
Ruzikca-Kadri-Dube looked good against Columbus
Coleman-Backlund-Coronato started to look better as well.
Greer-Sharangovich-Duehr had looked good all year (although I'd get trying to find a bigger role for Sharangovich).

Instead they went with:

Ruzicka-Lindholm-Coronato - put our three best finishers on one line?
Huberdeau-Kadri-Dube - think anybody could see this line having defensive issues
Coleman-Backlund-Mangiapane - tried and true
Greer-Sharangovich-Duehr - if you're going to shake up lines at least fine a bigger role for Sharangovich.

That top 6 shake up was just ill advised from the start and Detroit took advantage of it.

It was eerily similar to what Sutter did last year and the comments afterwards.

It made zero sense to blow up the lines yesterday. If they got blown out the last two games sure.

They played a really good road trip up until yesterday and for whatever reason Huska felt it was time to blow it up and go to lines that pretty much sewered our season last year, and we got the same results.

Also Vladar was bad and was the backend. Huberdeau was bad, but really you can't blame him when Dube turns it over and he hasn't touched the puck the entire shift.

[codynw]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

They have the worst PDO in the league.

Once this normalizes,.they will go on a very fun run.

The Flames always have a bad PDO because their goalies suck and they have no elite shooters. It’s not going to normalize.

[SuperMatt18]

Yup the more I think about it the more I think the loss is on the coaching staff.

The lines up to yesterday at least were controlling play:

Mangiapane-Lindholm-Huberdeau: 73.3% HDCF, 58.2% xGF, 60% GF (3-2), 1.024 PDO
Ruzikca- Kadri - Dube: 66.7% HDCF, 60.3% xGF, 50% GF (2-2), .973 PDO
Coleman-Backlund-Coronato: 70% HDCF, 59.2% xGF, 25% GF (1-3), .886 PDO
Greer - Sharangovich - Duehr: 64.7% HDCF, 61.5% xGF, 33% GF (1-2), .886 PDO

Overall those lines were somewhat working at driving play at least, the top 2 lines had been producing, and all three lines were above 58% xGF. The 3rd and 4th line were both under a .900 PDO which was hurting them, but both looked good otherwise and were just struggling to finish.

Absolutely no reason to overreact and change all the lines yesterday, with no practice time between games before an afternoon game. Terrible decision by the coaches.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Oh no, we're back to talking about "normalizing"
Still waiting for mediocre goaltending to normalize, OT loser points to normalize, low shooting % to normalize.
When can we except those things are the teams normal?

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

The Flames need consistency. They have to let the lines cook

Taking after Sutter's rug pulls when the roster shows its first signs of gelling is how you're going to end up with the same results as last year.

[Paulie Walnuts]

I also wonder if Lindholm is the difficult one to talk about.

Huberdeau made a interesting comment during the Buffalo game saying they need to talk out there and communicate to build that chemistry.

Even with the new lines you don't see him talking much.

Dube/Huberdeau/Kadri seem to talk a lot on the ice and on the bench. It wasn't working and hasn't worked but you see them at least talking.

[DirtyMike]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

Not surprising at all. It starts with a meddling owner that refuses to rebuild. Love Conroy, but he's the yes-man Murray wanted and as long as he refuses to rebuild, Conroy's hand are ultimately tied.

You get what you get when you go bargain bin hunting for a coach. I swore after Sutter was hired last time that I was fed up with the team failing to hire established NHL caliber coaches. Never again. I wish Huska the best, but he'll take a while to get the team's system down pact, if ever.

Kadri...woof. Mason Raymond, Brouwer, Neal should never even be mentioned in the same breath. This contract is...bad. Shades of a 33+ year old Iggy being expected to regain his youth of 10 years prior. Kadri is what he is; an aging vet on year 2/7 of his contract. Ouch. Just...ouch.

Can keep listing things out, but ultimately this is a middling team that will be strugglng all season long to keep their head above water most nights. Just have to hope it all comes together at some point. At least Markstrom looks great again. Hope to see the goalie situation rectified and Wolf brought up sooner than later.

Iginla was 3rd in goals and 6th in points in the NHL when he was 33, not sure there is a comparison between the two.

[HighLifeMan]

Bad goaltending has overshadowed some good things this team is doing at five on five (what else is new?)

Unfortunately this team has already allowed over 8 more goals than expected at five on five through just six games. That's flat out ridiculous and no other team sniffs that total. If the goaltending doesn't start to show any signs of turning around in these next four games then Wolf needs to be called up. We can't keep waiting.

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

^ I think we can all agree that Wolf here needs to happen.

I wonder how much of those goals allowed above expected were on Vladar, because it certainly feels like markstrom has been improved.

[Huntingwhale]

Originally Posted by DirtyMike

Iginla was 3rd in goals and 6th in points in the NHL when he was 33, not sure there is a comparison between the two.

That's true, that was a good season for him. Bad example that year. But in general, there was quite a lot of talk around that time of Iginla no longer being the power forward he once was, playing more on the parameter and having lost his "beast mode" style (outside of the occasional fight). Age caught up to that style of play. Yet people were still waiting for him to get it back.

In that sense I see a lot of what Kadri is going through. A player renowned for being a power forward, agitator, but showing none of those traits due to his age. Not trying to compare Kadri to Iginla as players. But rather they both simply had to change their style due to age, and I doubt we'll ever see the Kadri of old (COL) here. If we are hoping for Kadri to regain what he once had, that is a losing battle. We might see a few flashes here and there at best.

That contract is a doozy, plain and simple.

[HighLifeMan]

Originally Posted by TrentCrimmIndependent

^ I think we can all agree that Wolf here needs to happen.

I wonder how much of those goals allowed above expected were on Vladar, because it certainly feels like markstrom has been improved.

At five on five
Vladar ranks second last in the NHL with a -4.73 goals saved above average.
Markstrom ranks third last in the NHL wtih a -3.89 goals saved above average.

Keep in mind these two guys have only surrendered 3 high danger goals against out of the 19 scored against us. They are letting in goals from areas they should generally be making saves from.