Speaking truth to power using facts and opinion...
Is that what you call it when for example you buy in to a story of Israel bombing a hospital, with ballistic facts based on opinion? That sort of bastion of truth that lays the foundation to berate everyone else for their media literacy and consumption while justifying our own bs peddling?
Out####ing standing dude.
The difference is a wise person will use the hospital bombing mis-attribution as a cautionary tale to head the next time. A muppet will jump up and down pointing and yelling "see! Both sides!" and continue to be dumb.
The difference is a wise person will use the hospital bombing mis-attribution as a cautionary tale to head the next time. A muppet will jump up and down pointing and yelling "see! Both sides!" and continue to be dumb.
Isn't that exactly what most people in this thread are doing? At one point there was a deep dive into ancient times.
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"By Grabthar's hammer ... what a savings."
Speaking truth to power using facts and opinion...
Is that what you call it when for example you buy in to a story of Israel bombing a hospital, with ballistic facts based on opinion? That sort of bastion of truth that lays the foundation to berate everyone else for their media literacy and consumption while justifying our own bs peddling?
Out####ing standing dude.
Nice try. If you go look at the thread I asked people to raise questions about what was being shown in the media because it didn't make sense, either way. That is part of the problem we're facing right now, information is not being questioned no matter how much it doesn't fit. People are finding media to fit their narrative instead. But you would know nothing about that. You've never done that yourself.
The difference is a wise person will use the hospital bombing mis-attribution as a cautionary tale to head the next time. A muppet will jump up and down pointing and yelling "see! Both sides!" and continue to be dumb.
Also needs to be pointed out that disproving claims doesn't necessarily make you a denier.
eg The poster that claimed they knew what happened ahead of the IDF. The IDF posting a claim refuting their involvement with a video with a false time stamp that they had to walk back and Blankall repeating claims contrary to IDF that it was a shot down rocket.
Even now. Whilst the vast majority are in agreement regarding it being a malfunctioning rocket there is still some doubt regarding the so called audio recordings.
Problem is for most people they're bombarded initially with info from Hamas and IDF. Both, known and proven liars.
Also needs to be pointed out that disproving claims doesn't necessarily make you a denier.
eg The poster that claimed they knew what happened ahead of the IDF. The IDF posting a claim refuting their involvement with a video with a false time stamp that they had to walk back and Blankall repeating claims contrary to IDF that it was a shot down rocket.
Even now. Whilst the vast majority are in agreement regarding it being a malfunctioning rocket there is still some doubt regarding the so called audio recordings.
Problem is for most people they're bombarded initially with info from Hamas and IDF. Both, known and proven liars.
Would also be decent if our PM didn’t jump at the opportunity to virtue signal, the wait a good 5, or 6 days, screw it , make it a week, before he corrects himself. If he ever does. Unfortunately we live in a time where dumb misinformation like that will get air time.
It goes deeper than that, before Oct 7th Jews had a dislike for the antics but I doubt as a whole it wasn't exactly hatred, but Arabs in general have always hated the Jews. Name a time when Israel dropped bombs that wasn't in retaliation?
I hate to think what that region would be like if there wasn't an iron dome.
Israel has a tough road to walk, but you can't win hearts and minds with bombs.
Canada is a major success story for our treatment of Muslims, and the surveys say that Muslims born in Canada accept Canadian values.
"A much larger majority of Muslims totally (62%) or
somewhat (26%) agree with the statement that “other
cultures have a lot to teach us; contact is enriching”,
with only four percent disagreeing and another 10 percent
offering no clear response. These results are essentially
unchanged from 2006. This view is shared by most Muslims
across the country, with agreement most evident among
those 18 to 34 (93% totally agree), those with a university
education (92%), and those born in Canada (95%)"
"A 2016 survey found that 36% of Canadian Muslims (47% of those aged 18–34) agreed that homosexuality should be generally accepted by society, while 43% disagreed. Older Muslims (55%) and those with the lowest incomes (56%) were more likely to disagree. The acceptance of homosexuality was higher among the Muslims born in Canada (52%) and South Africa (42%) than Muslims born in Pakistan (0%), Middle East (0%) and North Africa (0%)"
These poll results show that Muslims, when given any kind of chance to live their best lives, will conform with western values.
Now Israel can't be expected to follow the same path as Canada as they have a lot of disadvantages that prevent their country from achieving the same kind of success, but their American style approach to conflict has done them no favors.
I think its kind of absurd to expect the powerless and impoverished to be the ones to be the voices of change. The ones who hold the power are the ones best situated to extend an olive branch and be a positive force for a better path forward. The country of Israel's track record here is half hearted at best.
Israel has a tough road to walk, but you can't win hearts and minds with bombs.
Canada is a major success story for our treatment of Muslims, and the surveys say that Muslims born in Canada accept Canadian values.
"A much larger majority of Muslims totally (62%) or
somewhat (26%) agree with the statement that “other
cultures have a lot to teach us; contact is enriching”,
with only four percent disagreeing and another 10 percent
offering no clear response. These results are essentially
unchanged from 2006. This view is shared by most Muslims
across the country, with agreement most evident among
those 18 to 34 (93% totally agree), those with a university
education (92%), and those born in Canada (95%)"
"A 2016 survey found that 36% of Canadian Muslims (47% of those aged 18–34) agreed that homosexuality should be generally accepted by society, while 43% disagreed. Older Muslims (55%) and those with the lowest incomes (56%) were more likely to disagree. The acceptance of homosexuality was higher among the Muslims born in Canada (52%) and South Africa (42%) than Muslims born in Pakistan (0%), Middle East (0%) and North Africa (0%)"
These poll results show that Muslims, when given any kind of chance to live their best lives, will conform with western values.
Now Israel can't be expected to follow the same path as Canada as they have a lot of disadvantages that prevent their country from achieving the same kind of success, but their American style approach to conflict has done them no favors.
I think its kind of absurd to expect the powerless and impoverished to be the ones to be the voices of change. The ones who hold the power are the ones best situated to extend an olive branch and be a positive force for a better path forward. The country of Israel's track record here is half hearted at best.
Sorry but this is total nonsense. This is not about Muslim minorities in the West integrating to the West. You are talking about theocracies in the middle East accepting Western values. It's like asking Mexico to be become non-religious, it's not happening.
I've learned to not care about religion, I had to. But all religions are not the same. If a christian fundamentalist comes to me in Mexico and tries to convert me I hate it but I'll live. If a Muslim fundamentalist comes he'll probably not be so nice like we saw in Israel.
Speaking truth to power using facts and opinion...
Is that what you call it when for example you buy in to a story of Israel bombing a hospital, with ballistic facts based on opinion? That sort of bastion of truth that lays the foundation to berate everyone else for their media literacy and consumption while justifying our own bs peddling?
Out####ing standing dude.
Did you have the same outrage regarding that fake ass story about beheading babies, or is this selective outrage?
Well, this isn't good. Israel 'accidentally' fired from their tank, injuring at least 7 Egyptian border guards. Not sure why they're doing that when there are aid convoys traveling through the border for the suffering in Gaza.
Several Egyptian border guards sustained minor injuries on Sunday after being accidentally hit by fragments of a shell from an Israeli tank, a spokesperson for the Egyptian army said.
Israel's military earlier said one of its tanks accidentally hit an Egyptian position near the border with the Gaza Strip.
The notion that Arab Muslims are hyper-conservative because they’re poor is unfounded. The Saudis and Gulf States have so much money they literally don’t know what to do with it all except buy the most prestigious sports franchises in the world and build luxury mega-hotels. And still they ban pride symbols in the sport stadiums they spent billions on and have adulterers whipped.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fotze
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
Last edited by CliffFletcher; 10-23-2023 at 11:15 AM.
Sorry but this is total nonsense. This is not about Muslim minorities in the West integrating to the West. You are talking about theocracies in the middle East accepting Western values. It's like asking Mexico to be become non-religious, it's not happening.
Have you ever been to Hebron?
I went there to see the West Bank and visited the Cave of Patriarchs. In a city of thousands of Palestinians there is a small community of hundreds of Jewish Settlers protected by thousands of Israeli soldiers. Walls, cattle gates, and barbed wire everywhere. Hundreds of abandoned homes surrounding the Jewish neighborhoods. Guard towers all over the place.
It gave the same kind of skin crawling sensation as being in Auschwitz, the Cambodian Killing Fields, or North Korea. Just an absolutely depressing environment. Thousands of Palestinians have been displaced to make room for a few hundred settlers. The entire center of the city feels like a prison. Could you imagine growing up in an environment like that? I don't know how anyone could go there and not get a feeling of how absolutely wrong it all is.
I mean when you receive billions of dollars in military aid every year I guess it doesn't matter if it makes any financial sense to have 1000+ soldiers "protecting" hundreds of people in the virtually abandoned downtown core of a city of thousands.
Israel demolished the only airport in Palestine in the early 2000s and talked about allowing it to be reopened. 20 years later, no one in the occupied territories can get on a flight even if they can afford it.
Its not just the Muslims either. Corey Gil-Shuster has a pretty informative youtube channel where he questions Israelis and Palestinians randomly on the street. As a Jew himself you can tell he obviously favors one side a little more, but he tries to be fair in tackling some pretty charged questions for both sides.
Here is one about how Christian Palestinians feel about their safety in the West Bank surrounded by Muslims:
Here is one about the discrimination that Arab Israelis feel:
There are tonnes more. The more I watch the more I realize that the vast majority of Palestinians in the West Bank are just regular people trying to live regular lives while being collectively punished for the actions of the violent minority.
A lot of the videos show Palestinians to be pretty welcoming and relatively, reasonable people except when the topic of Israelis is the main focus, and I can't say I blame them. I couldn't imagine growing up in a place where a soldier can arbitrarily decide if you can even leave your hometown.
I mean all the violence back and forth from the 50s to the 80s a person can chalk up to being a product of the times, but from the 90s onwards people's attitudes in the western world started to have a seismic shift on what was acceptable behavior for the government of a developed, democratic nation.
Israel has done just a terrible job in especially the last 20 years at giving the regular citizens of Palestine any kind of hope that things will ever improve for them. There are all kinds of things the Israeli government could be doing to sway the opinion of the Palestinians in their direction, but they aren't choosing that route.
The majority of Arab Israelis seem to think Israel isn't all that bad of a place to be. There is proof right there that both sides could peacefully co-exist if more effort was made. In order for that to happen though, regular Palestinians need to get a taste of what life is like for the other side. When people have a chance to make a decent living, have basic freedoms, and have a life worth protecting the violence will eventually solve itself.
Israel doesn't have to win the hearts and minds of the entire Middle East. They just have to win the hearts and minds of the Palestinians in their own borders.
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The notion that Arab Muslims are hyper-conservative because they’re poor is unfounded. The Saudis and and Gulf States have so much money they literally don’t know what to do with it all except buy the most prestigious sports franchises in the world and build luxury mega-hotels. And still they ban pride symbols in the sport stadiums they spent billions on and have adulterers whipped.
Palestinians aren't hyper conservative though. One thing that surprises tourists is the nightlife. All the bars, and drinking and dancing.
The notion that Arab Muslims are hyper-conservative because they’re poor is unfounded. The Saudis and Gulf States have so much money they literally don’t know what to do with it all except buy the most prestigious sports franchises in the world and build luxury mega-hotels. And still they ban pride symbols in the sport stadiums they spent billions on and have adulterers whipped.
Yeah, I have no respect for Islam the faith in the same way I have no respect for any religions. But I do distinguish between the people living in Gaza and the faith they practice.
I don't GAF about Judaism, Christianity or Islam, but I value all of those individual lives the same. Do I want a disproportionate response by Israel toward Palestinians to stop because I want to preserve the ideology of Muslims in the area? Not at all. I think they'd all be better off in that area (and everywhere) if they stopped believing in fairytales and focused their energy on living in reality.
Fixing extremist ideology - be it Christian, Jewish or Muslim - would be a dream come true, but in the now I just think they should stop killing each other regardless of their faiths. Maybe easy to say when you look at all religions as completely and utterly ridiculous, but really we all just start as humans and then the unfortunate majority get indoctrinated into beliefs that prevent peaceful coexistence.
I'm not a defender of Islam or the practices of Muslims in Gaza or anywhere else in the world that are unaccepting of differing views, LGBTQ+, limit women's rights, etc., but it's pretty fkn easy to be against killing them ffs. They didn't choose to be indoctrinated.
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Yeah, I have no respect for Islam the faith in the same way I have no respect for any religions. But I do distinguish between the people living in Gaza and the faith they practice.
I don't GAF about Judaism, Christianity or Islam, but I value all of those individual lives the same. Do I want a disproportionate response by Israel toward Palestinians to stop because I want to preserve the ideology of Muslims in the area? Not at all. I think they'd all be better off in that area (and everywhere) if they stopped believing in fairytales and focused their energy on living in reality.
Fixing extremist ideology - be it Christian, Jewish or Muslim - would be a dream come true, but in the now I just think they should stop killing each other regardless of their faiths. Maybe easy to say when you look at all religions as completely and utterly ridiculous, but really we all just start as humans and then the unfortunate majority get indoctrinated into beliefs that prevent peaceful coexistence.
I'm not a defender of Islam or the practices of Muslims in Gaza or anywhere else in the world that are unaccepting of differing views, LGBTQ+, limit women's rights, etc., but it's pretty fkn easy to be against killing them ffs. They didn't choose to be indoctrinated.
Where do you see the extremist ideology in the Christian faith today...just curious...honest question.
Where do you see the extremist ideology in the Christian faith today...just curious...honest question.
Baptists, for starters. But even the Pope doesn't want equality for women or LGTBQ+ in their club. In our modern society, I feel that yes, it is extreme to discriminate and not provide equality for all.
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