Going door to door and killing civilian families hiding in bomb shelters is not collateral damage. Opening fire on young people at a music festival while they run for their lives is not collateral damage.
I'm not sure why you're telling me this, this is exactly what I said.
However, there is (as I said in my very long post #1863 in this thread) a spectrum of how bad "collateral damage" is. Intentional killing of civilians is almost always going to be worse than killing civilians as a result of collateral damage, but it's not some sort of moral "get out of jail free" card, either. In some cases, where there's a sense that the Israelis are indifferent to the casualties that result from their military activities, there's a lot less difference in blameworthiness between the two types of killing of innocents. I don't know that that's been acknowledged adequately in here by the people defending Israel's right to go after Hamas in retribution for the latter's attacks.
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Originally Posted by Fuzz
What needs to be corrected? She's saying whoever was responsible did a really bad thing. Just because you read it as saying Israel, it is not. That's the great thing about waiting for facts befroe apportioning blame.
You cannot be serious.
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Last edited by CorsiHockeyLeague; 10-19-2023 at 11:10 AM.
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It matters, because beheading babies is worse than simply murdering them. It denotes a level of barbarism that's particularly sensational and that's why it was noted in every headline.
... But it's not, you know, THAT much worse. The kids are still dead either way.
And you know exactly what the difference was that was being referred to between Hamas beheading a baby and Israel dropping a bomb that kills babies - it's the same difference between collateral damage and intentional killing for its own that throughout the entire thread you've said everyone understands and nobody disputes. And that doesn't change whether Hamas beheads its victim, or shoots them, or blows them up with a bomb or rocket, or any other method of direct and intentional murder. Why write this post in a way that suggests that line doesn't exist?
Because the specificity of the type of killing mattered to people at the time, which I said. There was posts specifically mentioning the beheading as a defining factor of that difference.
How did I suggest the line didn’t exist when I was describing the conversation that was had a week ago? You do a lot of assuming what I’m suggesting instead of just asking, and it’d be a lot less annoying to answer a question than respond with a correction.
The world really did get fixated on the hospital thing. Weird because you can point to Israel taking out entire apartment complexes where there is no ambiguity.
Were people quick to jump to conclusions on the hospital thing? Yeah, most people were. Seems we've pretty much settled on a munition hit a parking lot and there wouldn't have been that many dead and that it was likely a failed Hamas rocket. Works for me, but also works well for Israel since we're still "sputtering indignantly" (loving that diminutive expression - it's now in 'A' rotation for me) about it while they continue to annihilate people and infrastructure.
Different angle or same building? I don't know:
Oh, and just for funsies for everyone who is pretending this all started on October 7, here is Israel taking out a building two years ago. Probably weren't any babies in there, so I'm not sweating it:
And Hamas was disgustingly violent on October 7, those sick fks. A lot of blame to go around here. The people digging in on one side, though? I don't get it. And I don't get pretending this all started two weeks ago and Israel is some sort of victim here (aside from the Oct 7 attack, in which they were clearly and violently the victim), which is really where the majority seem to fall online.
Is it anti-Semitic to try to be more thoughtful about it? Absolutely not. Is it racist to be 100% against the Palestinians and not empathize with their perspective. Yeah, I'd say so. Will everyone here say, but "I'm not 100% against the Palestinians"? Also, yes, but in many posts here I'm not seeing any demonstrable empathy for them nor a meaningful distinction between Palestinians and Hamas.
Also, when have the Palestinians been punished enough for October 7? When we get 10 dead Palestinians for every one dead Israeli? For the people who believe Israel has every right to destroy people and property in Gaza right now...is there a point at which you'd say, "okay, Israel...revenge has been exacted and that's enough dead until the next flare up?" And also for the cheerleaders of Israel on this...do you think Israel's current violent approach will ultimately further the presumed goal of peace and safety for the region? Or is that not what this is about?
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These types of comments are terrible. This type of stuff perpetuates hatred. Hamas is a vile terrorist group, Israel is a country with human rights.
Want to talk policy that you don't like? Sure, let's do it. They are not in any capacity comparable.
They don’t have to be comparable to dislike both of them for different reasons.
Just because you don’t like punching yourself in the face and don’t like broccoli doesn’t mean broccoli is comparable to punching yourself in the face.
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SomeUN OCHA numbers to consider. Since 2000 Hamas has killed 2,746 Israelis. Tragic and heinous. No one is defending Hamas and everyone is in agreement that Hamas should be hunted out of existence.
On the other side of the engagement Israel has killed 14,293 Palestinians during that same time. A ratio of 5.2 to 1. Is this not equally as tragic and heinous? These numbers do not include the death and suffering caused from the apartheid state the Palestinians are living under. When is this going to enter the larger conversation?
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What needs to be corrected? She's saying whoever was responsible did a really bad thing. Just because you read it as saying Israel, it is not. That's the great thing about waiting for facts befroe apportioning blame.
We have reached the deliberately obtuse stage of the discussion
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SomeUN OCHA numbers to consider. Since 2000 Hamas has killed 2,746 Israelis. Tragic and heinous. No one is defending Hamas and everyone is in agreement that Hamas should be hunted out of existence.
On the other side of the engagement Israel has killed 14,293 Palestinians during that same time. A ratio of 5.2 to 1. Is this not equally as tragic and heinous? These numbers do not include the death and suffering caused from the apartheid state the Palestinians are living under. When is this going to enter the larger conversation?
Well put. The loss of life on both sides and the way media around the world spins it for one side or another and spins this as an Israel vs Arab people conflict just ignores the fact that this is actually a Islamic terrorist organization vs a corrupt Israeli government issue. And of course, all the civilians are caught in between.
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These types of comments are terrible. This type of stuff perpetuates hatred. Hamas is a vile terrorist group, Israel is a country with human rights.
Human rights for some, not all. The UN and Amnesty International have documented the apartheid state Israel enforces on the Palestinians. Human Rights Watch has documented 50 years of abuses by Israel against Palestinians.
Hamas is a collective of human garbage than needs to be kicked to the curb, no doubt. But Israel is far from innocent in what is happening in the Middle East. Israel is indeed a country, it just needs to be better at treating all people equally and extending the same human rights to everyone.
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SomeUN OCHA numbers to consider. Since 2000 Hamas has killed 2,746 Israelis. Tragic and heinous. No one is defending Hamas and everyone is in agreement that Hamas should be hunted out of existence.
On the other side of the engagement Israel has killed 14,293 Palestinians during that same time. A ratio of 5.2 to 1. Is this not equally as tragic and heinous? These numbers do not include the death and suffering caused from the apartheid state the Palestinians are living under. When is this going to enter the larger conversation?
Sorry Lanny, Israel should take down the Iron Dome to have more deaths for you, and also remove the blockade on Gaza so Hamas and other Palestinian terrorists can resume their suicide bombings of cafes and schools. Restrictions of movements of Palestinians have occurred because of decades of war waging by various Palestinian groups, targeting mainly civilians. The PLO still has a pay per slay initiative which pays terrorists families compensation for the rest of their life. Arguments like this are devoid of historical knowledge which I know you do not have. If Israel did not place a blockade on Gaza, did not have Iron Dome, and if they did not restrict movements of Palestinians the number of Israelis killed would be far higher, which then I guess would make it more fair for you.
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Mousa Qasqas, media spokesperson for Edmonton's Palestinian community, told reporters he wants to see the Canadian federal government condemn the latest attacks in the Gaza Strip.
That includes a huge explosion and fire at a Gaza City hospital packed with patients, relatives and Palestinians seeking shelter. Hamas said it was from an Israeli airstrike, while Israel blamed a misfired rocket by the Palestinian militant group Islamic Jihad. Islamic Jihad denied any involvement.
Palestinians protesting a huge explosion at a hospital that was caused by friendly fire, not by Israel.
SomeUN OCHA numbers to consider. Since 2000 Hamas has killed 2,746 Israelis. Tragic and heinous. No one is defending Hamas and everyone is in agreement that Hamas should be hunted out of existence.
On the other side of the engagement Israel has killed 14,293 Palestinians during that same time. A ratio of 5.2 to 1. Is this not equally as tragic and heinous? These numbers do not include the death and suffering caused from the apartheid state the Palestinians are living under. When is this going to enter the larger conversation?
Firstly, this is not UN data.
Quote:
Who We Are
This is a project of If Americans Knew, a nonprofit organization dedicated to informing Americans about the U.S. connection to Israel-Palestine.
And what's the percentage of soldiers to civilians? These numbers include over a 1000 militants that stormed past the Gaza barrier.
And its not equally as "tragic" or "heinous" because the militant groups are targeting the other sides civilians and purposely putting their own civilians at risk.
SomeUN OCHA numbers to consider. Since 2000 Hamas has killed 2,746 Israelis. Tragic and heinous. No one is defending Hamas and everyone is in agreement that Hamas should be hunted out of existence.
On the other side of the engagement Israel has killed 14,293 Palestinians during that same time. A ratio of 5.2 to 1. Is this not equally as tragic and heinous? These numbers do not include the death and suffering caused from the apartheid state the Palestinians are living under. When is this going to enter the larger conversation?
You're missing the point that Hamas would kill every Israeli in existence if it could. Israelis aren't completely innocent, especially Netanyahu who keeps pushing and pushing, but their ultimate goal is peace, all the way back to 1947.
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Sorry Lanny, Israel should take down the Iron Dome to have more deaths for you, and also remove the blockade on Gaza so Hamas and other Palestinian terrorists can resume their suicide bombings of cafes and schools. Restrictions of movements of Palestinians have occurred because of decades of war waging by various Palestinian groups, targeting mainly civilians. The PLO still has a pay per slay initiative which pays terrorists families compensation for the rest of their life. Arguments like this are devoid of historical knowledge which I know you do not have. If Israel did not place a blockade on Gaza, did not have Iron Dome, and if they did not restrict movements of Palestinians the number of Israelis killed would be far higher, which then I guess would make it more fair for you.
It's almost like this is an extremely complex issue and involves decades of cycles of abuse and atrocities which makes wholly defending one side rather difficult
You're missing the point that Hamas would kill every Israeli in existence if it could. Israelis aren't completely innocent but their ultimate goal is peace, all the way back to 1947.
But you've just confused Palestinians with Hamas. They're not the same thing. Hamas leadership should be hunted down by Israel wherever they may be. I know countries aren't supposed to assassinate people in other countries, but I won't tell.
If Israel's goal is peace, then their leadership is comprised of the dumbest group of morons to have ever existed by trying to violently achieve peace by killing Palestinians like fish in the barrel they put them in for the terrorist actions of Hamas. If I'm an average-Joe Palestinian right now, I'm not thinking about peace with Israel. There would have been some goodwill Israel could have worked with after October 7. Parachute some DVD players with scenes of the terrorist attack on Israel all over Gaza and for sure you'd touch some hearts of Palestinians. But nope. Let's bomb them until we get peace. Good plan, guys. Let me know over the next few decades how that worked out for you. Also, thanks for stressing out the world and amplifying the problems.
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There's a whole lot of blood calculus going on in here. I don't think anyone can solve that equation, because religion and xenophobia are factors this.
