Israel declares war on Hamas

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by _Q_

This is bull####.

Did Japan lose its right to their own nation after they lost World War 2? Did Germany? Did Iraq after the war on terror? Did Afghanistan? No to all. Why? Because the attacking force, as brutal as they were understood that the surrendering nation still deserves the same dignity that is afforded to all humans across the world.

Israel on the other hand, " you guys lose your right to being humans. Either accept it or find a place to die."

Sounds similar to how First Nations in North America were expected to just get over and deal with everything that befell them.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by activeStick

International Committee of the Red Cross... Israel needs to be stopped by the international community before things get much worse.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1713076268776800329

They're destroying them as they always wanted to. This whole thing is so sad.

[GullFoss]

I don't think it's helpful to try and simplify the issue to countries or to group all citizens of a country together as one people. Together, Israel and Palestine are 14,500,000 people, each of whom have differing views and opinions on the matter that will change over time.

And these people are represented by hundreds of representatives and a number of leaders who also have shifting views. And the representatives and leaders are also changing over time.

These leaders need to build working political coalitions that are constantly being attacked, both from within their coalition, outside their coalition and outside of their country. While many people want peace and believe in a fair two state solution, others have differing goals such as the destruction of Israel or the continued expansion of Israel (and removal of Palestine). This political problem is difficult and complicated. But it's not unsolvable.

The fact that the right combination of actors haven't arrived on the scene yet doesn't mean they never will. The fact that strong political coalitions for peace haven't emerged yet doesn't mean they never will. One day the right catalysts will emerge and the right people will rise to positions of power and these capable leaders will build a sufficiently strong coalition and will be able to negotiate a fair two-state solution for both sides.

That day is not today. And that day is probably not going to be tomorrow. But that doesn't mean never, so don't give into despair or hopelessness or hatred of one side over the other. Remember that the large majority of people on both sides are largely innocent and want a peaceful existence. And that makes these events (both the terrorists attack and the subsequent war crimes) a tragedy more than anything else. Even the people that have temporarily given in to rage, hatred and irrationality aren't lost forever.

Control your emotions, hold on to hope, trust in the goodness of humanity and believe in better days.

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by _Q_

This is bull####.

Did Japan lose its right to their own nation after they lost World War 2? Did Germany? Did Iraq after the war on terror? Did Afghanistan? No to all. Why? Because the attacking force, as brutal as they were understood that the surrendering nation still deserves the same dignity that is afforded to all humans across the world.

Israel on the other hand, " you guys lose your right to being humans. Either accept it or find a place to die."

You have never accepted the idea of the right of the Jewish people to live in their own state in biblical Israel in any event so your argument along with about everything else you say is total bull####.

[transplant99]

Mother nature doing her best to see if some sort of resolution can happen.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1713361623665053974

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

You have never accepted the idea of the right of the Jewish people to live in their own state in biblical Israel in any event so your argument along with about everything else you say is total bull####.

Cool down, geez. Have respect for an opinion from the other side.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Wormius

Sounds similar to how First Nations in North America were expected to just get over and deal with everything that befell them.

Exactly! But at least they all have citizenship and equal rights to everyone else in Canada and the US. And at least everyone here acknowledges that they are the original people of this land.

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

You have never accepted the idea of the right of the Jewish people to live in their own state in biblical Israel in any event so your argument along with about everything else you say is total bull####.

I don't, because nobody cares about the old testament. In a country that is 40% areligious, it's shocking that you expect the majority of the population to accept that concept.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by _Q_

This is bull####.

Did Japan lose its right to their own nation after they lost World War 2? Did Germany? Did Iraq after the war on terror? Did Afghanistan? No to all. Why? Because the attacking force, as brutal as they were understood that the surrendering nation still deserves the same dignity that is afforded to all humans across the world.

Israel on the other hand, " you guys lose your right to being humans. Either accept it or find a place to die."

Japan was nuked to submission, Germany was pulverised, Iraq is no longer a threat and except for it's own people the same goes for Afghanistan

Do you think Israel is going to keep Gaza? the objective is to crush Hamas not the Palestine people.

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Cool down, geez. Have respect for an opinion from the other side.

Agree.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Japan was nuked to submission, Germany was pulverised, Iraq is no longer a threat and except for it's own people the same goes for Afghanistan

Do you think Israel is going to keep Gaza? the objective is to crush Hamas not the Palestine people.

Israel's track record doesn't put any confidence in me that they won't just take Gaza.

The population there was even told that there is no guarantee they will be allowed back if they evacuate to Egypt.

[flylock shox]

The longer the ground offensive is delayed the better.



It still feels inevitable it will come, and with it the deaths of thousands more civilians - to say nothing of members of the IDF too. It feels inevitable that will be followed by a loss of international sympathy for Israel, and the risk of a widening conflict, possible involving Hezbollah too. It feels inevitable that a rolling series of humanitarian crises will unfold in the region. And it seems inevitable that - whenever and however things stabilize - nothing grand will be gained, and that the scars and hate will run deeper than before on both sides dooming them both to similar strife long into the future.



But the longer that fails to happen, the greater chance some other course can be taken - even if it is only a moderating of the plans for a ground offensive, and avenues for humanitarian aid to be established. A few days of rain could be divine intervention for thousands of people, and a blessing for both sides.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Israel's track record doesn't put any confidence in me that they won't just take Gaza.

The population there was even told that there is no guarantee they will be allowed back if they evacuate to Egypt.

Link?

A real link

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Link?

A real link

It was on aljazeera's news ticker 2 days ago. I can't link directly to that.

This is a Washington post article discussing Egypt's fears of allowing palestinians in without a guarantee they could ever return.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...fugees-israel/

Remember, Israel is the nation that believes the Nakba was "voluntary".

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by _Q_

It was on aljazeera's news ticker 2 days ago. I can't link directly to that.

This is a Washington post article discussing Egypt's fears of allowing palestinians in without a guarantee they could ever return.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...fugees-israel/

Remember, Israel is the nation that believes the Nakba was "voluntary".

I don't even see a fear and WP is behind a pay wall

Considering Gaza is made up mostly of refugees from within Israel I highly doubt they even would take it if given to them, my prediction is they'll help rebuild it for the Palestinians if they can end Hamas.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by _Q_

It was on aljazeera's news ticker 2 days ago. I can't link directly to that.

This is a Washington post article discussing Egypt's fears of allowing palestinians in without a guarantee they could ever return.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...fugees-israel/

Remember, Israel is the nation that believes the Nakba was "voluntary".

Israel doesn't control the southern border. Egypt is in charge of who gets in and out there. I'm sure Egypt is concerned that people would choose not to go back though.

[afc wimbledon]

Israel isnt going to 'keep' Gaza, the land isn't worth the diplomatic price, I can see them choosing to keep a strip of lane on the Egyptian border so they can control what gets into Gaza although even that is unlikely

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by blankall

Israel doesn't control the southern border. Egypt is in charge of who gets in and out there. I'm sure Egypt is concerned that people would choose not to go back though.

That's not really true, for a couple of reasons:

1) Israel is bombing Gaza, including right near the border crossing, so it's not exactly under Egypt's control. There's a reason that no aid is getting in, despite Egypt trying to use American citizens in Gaza as leverage to get Israel to allow them to send aid through at the Rafah crossing. But so far that hasn't worked.

2) If Israel does a ground invasion and occupies Gaza, then Egypt has zero control over who gets into Gaza. If Israel decides to now allow any Palestinians back in, there's nothing Egypt can do about that.

[Pointman]

For those interested in learning more on the matter, there's long Palestinian document on the transition of land ownership from Arabs to Jews. It should be noted, that according even to Palestinians, before Arab nations went into war to destroy Israel, Jews were actually buying, not stealing the land:


The main feature of the second period, which began soon after the Balfour Declaration of 1917 and extends from 1921 to 1947, is the establishment of Jewish settlements, the Kibbutzim, with the encouragement of such Jewish institutions as the Palestine Jewish Colonization Association,* the Palestine Land Development Company and the Jewish National Fund. The purpose of these three institutions was to transfer the Jewish populations of Europe to Palestine and provide them with facilities, homes, jobs and especially land in the new host country. It has been estimated that by about June 1947, the Jewish minority in Palestine had taken over 1,850,000 dunams** out of a total of 13 million dunams, mainly as a result of transactions between the above-mentioned Jewish institutions and the big Arab landowners of Palestine.3/


Prepared for, and under the guidance of the Committee on the Exercise of the Inalienable Rights of the Palestinian People

https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-208638/

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by opendoor

That's not really true, for a couple of reasons:

1) Israel is bombing Gaza, including right near the border crossing, so it's not exactly under Egypt's control. There's a reason that no aid is getting in, despite Egypt trying to use American citizens in Gaza as leverage to get Israel to allow them to send aid through at the Rafah crossing. But so far that hasn't worked.

2) If Israel does a ground invasion and occupies Gaza, then Egypt has zero control over who gets into Gaza. If Israel decides to now allow any Palestinians back in, there's nothing Egypt can do about that.

(2) doesn't prevent Egypt from letting people out of Gaza into Egypt

[rubecube]

Did I miss something where Egypt became a moral bellwether?