Israel declares war on Hamas

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Pointman

So much, that West Bank actually supports blockade of Gaza.

What's the source for that? Because that sounds unbelievable to me. Every statement I've seen from the PA or its leaders is demanding that food and medical supplies be allowed in to Gaza. Here's the Secretary General of the PLO:

https://twitter.com/user/status/1711795746268172312

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Not really. First of, Gaza-Israel conflict is complicated as it is. Second, there's West Bank - Gaza conflict on its own right. Third, lumping Gaza and West Bank together results in statements that are confusing. Like Israel having illegal settlements in "Palestinian lands". They don't have any settlements in Gaza. Israel doesn't even want to govern Gaza. Gaza is under blockade and at war with Israel. West Bank is not under blockade. It's not at war with Israel, although tensions are high. There are Israeli settlements there. West Bank is a different thing altogether and you only bring it in so you could criticize Israel.

The only legit reason to include West Bank into the debate is that if Hamas actions are some kind of revenge for perceived atrocities committed by Israel on West Bank. But this is not the case. In fact, Gaza and West Bank hate each other and had a civil war (Hamas - Fatah war). So bringing in how Israel is oppressing Palestinian population on West Bank only mislead people into believing that Gazans are suffering from the same and that's the reason why they are attacking Israel.

No, bringing up West Bank disputes the statement “Except that Jews are not removing anyone from their homes,” which is not just misleading but an outright lie. Suggesting that it is only brought up to enable criticism of Israel is misleading. Suggesting that the West Bank and the issues there have little relevance to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, or less relevance than near half of what you’ve happily discussed is misleading. You repeatedly correct people and engage in discussion that is not related to the thread, but whenever you are corrected or someone brings up something related, you suggest they’re off topic, spreading propaganda, misleading, or that their intentions are otherwise nefarious. That’s absurd.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by blankall

That argument is also an attempt to apologize for and support Hamas' actions. We've already seen the argument that there are no settlements in Gaza, because of Hamas.

In reality, the Israelis withdrew all of their Gaza settlements unilaterally and prior to Hamas taking power in Gaza. They had no intention of ever putting more settlements in Gaza. Once Hamas started launching attacks from and taking over Gaza, Israel then began to isolate Gaza (not before).

So Hamas not only did not dissuade Israelis from settling in Gaza, they turned Gaza into the prison it is. They have accomplished nothing positive for their people.

No. You seem set on labelling anything you disagree with as anti-semitic or supportive of Hamas (whether supporting their actions or apologizing for them). That is not what is happening, and I think you’re an honest enough person to admit that instead of playing this coy game of accusing people of these things without actually naming them. If people are supporting Hamas, name them and quote them. If you can’t, then that speaks for itself.

What people, including Q, have actually attempted to do is give context to the Palestinian position. Giving tangible reasons why Palestinians don’t like or trust the Israeli government isn’t supporting Hamas. Quoting Amnesty International or the UN isn’t anti-semitic.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Johnny Makarov

Are they stupid? why would they not retreat after the mass killings? What more could they have gained staying in Israel?

Considering many of the attacks were done by surprise paraglider, I don't think there was a way for them to easily escape once they had dropped into Israel. I don't want to make light of it but the method of attack seems like something out of an 80s action movie or cartoon except that it's a one-way suicide mission so they were able to dehumanize their victims since they didn't except to get out of it alive themselves.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Beninho and Nage_Waza both skipped over this, but I'm genuinely curious to hear their thoughts on it.

Indigenous people also claim that their land holds special cultural and spiritual value to them. Should they be granted their lands back? They are the original holders of the land.

Asking this again since it still hasn't been answered.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

20 per of Israeli citizens today are Arabs.

Yup, but one look at the flag, and they know where they rank in society.

Israel does a lot of things right with regards to being an open, inclusive society in the region. But as long as the nation is defined as one for Jews that affords special rights to Jews, there will be issues and resentment.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by _Q_

No matter what Hamas' stated goals are, they are incapable of destroying Israel.

You've brought up old Zionist documents before so it would only be fair to also look at Hamas' original charter. They may be incapable of destroying Israel but they definitely want to continue to use violence and jihad as a tenet of their faith and basic antisemitism.

According to the charter, Jewish people "have only negative traits and are presented as planning to take over the world."[35] The 1988 Charter claimed that the Jews deserved God's/Allah's enmity and wrath because they received the Scriptures but violated its sacred texts, disbelieved the signs of Allah, and slew their own prophets.[36] It quotes a saying of Muhammad from a hadith:

The Day of Judgment will not come until Muslims fight the Jews, when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say, 'O Muslim, O servant of God, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.'

There are structural problems that won't go away until the conditions of the Gaza Strip are resolved. I agree with your other points that it's a feedback loop of Israel isolating it like an open-air prison (not out of malice but out of security concerns - idealistically) which breeds more generations of hatred and violence. However, it's also deep-rooted in culture and religion.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by blankall

Unfortunately, the Arab and Muslim nations have an absolutely abhorrent track record when it comes to treatment of ethnic and religious minorities. The Israelis aren't going to give up the nation they've fought for to go back to living like good little subjects of some Muslim theocracy.

Given recent events, I don't know how you can honestly expect Israelis to accept the idea that if they were to tear down their borders everyone would live in safety and harmony.

The point is the Arab "neighbours" are no longer in the position where they get to decide who is "welcome" and who is not.

I understand that there may be anxiety surrounding that situation. I personally don't think it'll be an issue - for the most part - if there are treaties and mutual understanding from both sides in place.

If the settlers are OK with staying, then they should be able to stay. If there are some that are uncomfortable with that situation, then by all means, the stated homeland of the Jewish people is just a few kms away. Will there be violence at some point between the sides? Probably. It's inevitable. But that happens in most communities with multiple ethnicities living together, including here in the West. My hope is that it would be isolated events by dumb ass criminals that can just be handled as a police matter.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by opendoor

I don't think it's odd or unexpected that people would criticize a democratic ally that is heavily supported by the west for their oppression more than some random dictatorship.

It's really not a mystery why people in the US or Canada would be more invested in Israel/Palestine than say, the Rohingya conflict in Myanmar. And it's not because of anti-Semitism.

That explains more investment. But IMHO, it doesn’t explain orders of magnitude more investment.

Look at Turkey. Also a democratic ally that’s heavily supported by the West (a NATO member, even). And yet for decades its violent suppression of the Kurds has been a nothing-burger in the Western political circles where the Palestinian cause is championed and Israel vilified.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Asking this again since it still hasn't been answered.

I’m not going to compare situations that are entirely different, in a different part of the world, with an entirely different history. Go bait someone else. I’m done arguing with the Palestinian/Hamas apologists in this thread. Always the victim and never accountable. Why they are in this mess in the first place

[bdubbs]

I don't have a pony in this debate but the killing of innocents needs to stop (as much as reasonably so). Whoever can figure that out has my unilateral support.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

You've brought up old Zionist documents before so it would only be fair to also look at Hamas' original charter. They may be incapable of destroying Israel but they definitely want to continue to use violence and jihad as a tenet of their faith and basic antisemitism.

According to the charter, Jewish people "have only negative traits and are presented as planning to take over the world."[35] The 1988 Charter claimed that the Jews deserved God's/Allah's enmity and wrath because they received the Scriptures but violated its sacred texts, disbelieved the signs of Allah, and slew their own prophets.[36] It quotes a saying of Muhammad from a hadith:

The Day of Judgment will not come until Muslims fight the Jews, when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say, 'O Muslim, O servant of God, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.'

There are structural problems that won't go away until the conditions of the Gaza Strip are resolved. I agree with your other points that it's a feedback loop of Israel isolating it like an open-air prison (not out of malice but out of security concerns - idealistically) which breeds more generations of hatred and violence. However, it's also deep-rooted in culture and religion.

I think most of the problems with some arab societies can be traced back to poverty and hopelessness.

Do you think Bahrainis and Emiratis go around attempting to murder filipino foreign workers for being catholic and attempting to spread wickedness and debauchery throughout the land? Of course not. They don't give two ####s honestly.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by _Q_

I understand that there may be anxiety surrounding that situation. I personally don't think it'll be an issue - for the most part - if there are treaties and mutual understanding from both sides in place.

If the settlers are OK with staying, then they should be able to stay. If there are some that are uncomfortable with that situation, then by all means, the stated homeland of the Jewish people is just a few kms away. Will there be violence at some point between the sides? Probably. It's inevitable. But that happens in most communities with multiple ethnicities living together, including here in the West. My hope is that it would be isolated events by dumb ass criminals that can just be handled as a police matter.

You're basically stating that if the Israelis laid down their guns everything would be peaceful for them. However, that hasn't been their experience thus far. It wasn't their experience when the Ottoman Empire strictly controlled how many Jews lived in Jerusalem, their security, and the taxes they paid. it wasn't their experience when Arabs were having anti-Jewish riots in British Palestine. It wasn't their experience when Arabs invaded the newly formed Jewish nation and again multiple times later. It wasn't their experience when Palestinians were setting off suicide bombs in Israeli busses and cafes from the 1980s through to the early 2000s. It most certainly has not been their experience lately.

What you're talking about would require an extreme degree of trust. Recent events have not built trust.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

Yup, but one look at the flag, and they know where they rank in society.

Israel does a lot of things right with regards to being an open, inclusive society in the region. But as long as the nation is defined as one for Jews that affords special rights to Jews, there will be issues and resentment.

This Israel is open and inclusive?

The minister holding Israel’s purse strings calls himself a “proud homophobe.” Another minister says Pride parades are “vulgar,” while a deputy minister who wants to cancel them was just given power over some aspects of what schoolchildren are taught. And then there are the lawmakers who want doctors to be able to decline medical care to LGBTQ people.

These are all members of the new government helmed by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, and their extreme anti-LGBTQ sentiment has unnerved LGBTQ Israelis and their allies at home and overseas.

The politicians’ positions are not new, but their positions of power and leverage within the government are. Plus, the new government’s push toward a judicial overhaul that would give lawmakers the right to overrule the Supreme Court adds vulnerability to legal precedents that have protected LGBTQ Israelis.

“The majority of the gay community in Israel is feeling very unsafe,” said Hila Peer, the chairwoman of Aguda-The Association for LGBTQ Equality in Israel. “You have at least an intention to legislate laws that are dire for the gay community.”


Religious institutions control marriage for each of Israel’s constituent faiths, and the Jewish rabbinate hews to Orthodoxy. That means a slew of couples cannot marry in the country: interfaith couples; Jewish couples in which one of the couple is not recognized as Jewish under Orthodox precepts; a man and a woman who was not divorced under religious law; a “Cohen,” or descendant of a Jewish priest, and a divorced woman; and LGBTQ couples.

Under the law, those relationships are nonetheless recognized as legal for the purposes of benefits, inheritance, parenting, adoption and other rights if the couple is wed abroad, or in certain cases if the couple can simply prove a longstanding common-law relationship.

Despite the legal protections, LGBTQ Israelis have long faced opposition from within the Haredi, or ultra- Orthodox sector, where rabbis inveigh against homosexuality and politicians have vowed to run the country according to Orthodox interpretations of Jewish law. Jerusalem’s smaller Pride parade has frequently attracted extremist protesters from the sector, some of them violent. One teenage participant was murdered in 2015.

Politicians from the religious parties in the new government have floated multiple changes to laws and regulations that would diminish the status of LGBTQ Israelis.

The Religious Zionism Party is led by Bezalel Smotrich, who has called himself a “proud homophobe” and has envisioned Israel as a theocracy. At least two members of the party, including Orit Strock, say a proposed law would allow service providers, including physicians, to decline treatment to LGBTQ people.

Another party, Noam, is led by Avi Maoz, who wants to cancel Pride parades. He also advocates for conversion therapy, a practice shown to increase the risk of suicide for LGBTQ people who experience it. Maoz, who was given a new role in charge of “Jewish identity,” was confirmed on Sunday to an Education Ministry position with authority over external programming in schools.

Even the minister responsible for maintaining relations with Diaspora Jews has expressed anti-LGBTQ sentiment. Amichai Chikli favors recognition of same-sex relationships but derides LGBTQ “pride,” says he finds the annual pride parade to be “vulgar” and believes that sexual expression should be “subdued.” He has also said that the LGBTQ rainbow flag is an antizionist symbol.

For now, these proposals and ideas exist in the realm of rhetoric. But the deal between Netanyahu’s party, Likud, and United Torah Judaism, a Haredi party, spells out that the 2000 prohibition-of-discrimination law will be amended “in a way that will prevent any harm to a private business that withholds services or products based on religious belief, as long as the product or service is not unique and a similar product or service is available nearby geographically and for a similar price.”

https://www.timesofisrael.com/could-...n-lgbtq-haven/

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Beninho

I’m not going to compare situations that are entirely different, in a different part of the world, with an entirely different history. Go bait someone else. I’m done arguing with the Palestinian/Hamas apologists in this thread. Always the victim and never accountable. Why they are in this mess in the first place

They're different situations but the principle is similar. But sure, play the victim, lob ad hominems, and run away.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

This Israel is open and inclusive?


https://www.timesofisrael.com/could-...n-lgbtq-haven/

You seem to have missed this part:

Could the new government endanger Israel’s status as an LGBTQ haven?

Israel already has the status of a LGBTQ haven.

Yes, there is a politician who is opposed to that. I suppose there aren't any politicians in North America or other democracies opposed to LGBTQ rights though? All that shows is that Israel has freedom of religion, speech, and political position. Unfortunately, that also means some people with awful views get to vote and speak, just like here.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by blankall

You're basically stating that if the Israelis laid down their guns everything would be peaceful for them. However, that hasn't been their experience thus far. It wasn't their experience when the Ottoman Empire strictly controlled how many Jews lived in Jerusalem, their security, and the taxes they paid. it wasn't their experience when Arabs were having anti-Jewish riots in British Palestine. It wasn't their experience when Arabs invaded the newly formed Jewish nation and again multiple times later. It wasn't their experience when Palestinians were setting off suicide bombs in Israeli busses and cafes from the 1980s through to the early 2000s. It most certainly has not been their experience lately.

What you're talking about would require an extreme degree of trust. Recent events have not built trust.

Holy God man.

Nobody is asking Israel to lay down their arms... not me at least. They can have all the arms of the world as well as the arsenal of nukes if they makes them feel safe.

What I'm saying is, seriously set up a 2 state solution. Stop ####ing with the Palestinians and wish peace, prosperity and well being on your neighbour. If some jews want to live in palestine, it's all good. If they want to leave, that's OK too.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by rubecube

They're different situations but the principle is similar. But sure, play the victim, lob ad hominems, and run away.

I’m not going to change your view or others nor argue about something so god damn irrelevant just to argue with you. There is no point. Q thinks Israel should lay down their weapons and their very peaceful arab neighbors will allow Israel to exist. Delusion, i’ll check back here in two months when they same victimhood posters are still being victimized blaming Israel for everything and not this backward 12th century Islamic society they have to deal with.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by _Q_

I think most of the problems with some arab societies can be traced back to poverty and hopelessness.

Do you think Bahrainis and Emiratis go around attempting to murder filipino foreign workers for being catholic and attempting to spread wickedness and debauchery throughout the land? Of course not. They don't give two ####s honestly.

Yes and unfortunately there seems to be a non-stop lineup of corrupt and incompetent leaders who also keep their people in poverty or suffering in those impoverished countries whether its Lebanon, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, etc. (corruption also leads to the recent major humanitarian disasters like the Beirut explosion, earthquakes responses, broken dams, etc.) The middle eastern petro-states seem to be stable only because of their excess oil wealth but they are still ruled by tribal/family dictatorships who have embraced modernity and also desperately want to diversify their economies into tourism.

[undercoverbrother]

Someone earlier made a post about splitting this into 2 threads

1 - for discussion on the wider issues in Israel, Gaza & West Bank

2 - for actual news on what is happening


Good idea