Israel declares war on Hamas

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

This is a reasonable debate. I think boots on ground is too risky for the Israeli soldiers. Perhaps Palestinians can point out where Hamas and their supporters are hiding? And if they refuse, back to bombing?

Israel I believe used civilians for this before but once again, everyone complained. This will only get worse. Iran currently laughing, not just at the death of jews but also everyone happy about it. Mission accomplished financing all this nonsense globally.

Damned if they do and damned if they don't.

my guess is they use the control of water food and power to force the inhabitants to come to them, essentially create a moving border within Gaza with a 'cleansed' population on one side, I would guess they will be looking for DNA evidence fingerprints etc

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Like I said, there was never a reason to create an ethnostate exclusive to one master race. The arabs actually offered the creation of a binational state, which was promptly refused by the zionists.

The arabs were trying to find a peaceful way to integrate the Jewish community into the arab world. Yet the zionists had maximalist ideas to colonize the entire land. As for the Jewish refugees. That was only a result of the creation of Israel. Those refugees would not have existed without the partition of 48.

The creation of Israel in itself was an act of war, not the retaliation that followed.

This is complete revisionist history, it just isn’t true. It was never even offered as an ethnostate, at all. A land for everyone that would take in Jews. Israel protects all of its people, all religions, genders, everything. You need really need to read something besides wherever you got that from.

Thr UN created numerous nations, Israel was just one of them. Probably a really bad idea to have attacked Israel but here we are.

[FlamesAddiction]

The issue I believe is also one of poverty. Israel's success comes partly from investment (from other nations and Jewish diaspora organizations), and a lot from hard work. In the early days, it wasn't uncommon for Jews around the world to pilgrimage there to donate their time and labour to building a state, even if they chose not to live there. You never saw that kind of dedication from Arabs towards Palestinians.

Instead of using their vast wealth to help Palestinians build a state, Arab states and organizations chose to send weapons. The millions of dollars in rockets Hamas wastes every year could certainly be used for peaceful purposes that actually helps the population there.

Meanwhile, Arabs who make up a little more than 20% of the population in Israel, have a better average standard of living than their neighbours. Yes, some of them dissent, but for the most part they live peacefully. In fact, enrollment of Arabs into Israel's armed forces has increased by a magnitude or order over the past few years. One of the soldiers killed by Hamas during the recent rampage was actually a high ranking Israeli Arab defending his country.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Genuinely curious if any of Nage, gvalty, or Beninho think Bernie is an anti-semite or hates Jewish people, as that has been the reaction to similar statements made here.

I hope one day you understand how absurd your statement is. Must Jews all share the same opinion? What motivated you to ask such a question?

I know many Jews with many opinions….and they can share that opinion freely.

[Pointman]

Forget Jews, Israel, partitioning and all. Here are Palestinians complaining about horrible living conditions,that Egyptians are subjecting them to:

Palestinian refugees were treated as foreigners and were deprived of all privileges, including free education, residency, travelling and health insurance.

According to the Palestinian lawyer and human rights activist Fatma Ashour,5 from the death of Gamal Abdel Nasser in 1970 up to 2011, thousands of Palestinian families who resided in Egypt and carried an Egyptian travel document have suffered due to several issues.

They were deprived of free education and not allowed to enroll in government schools. Instead they had to pay large amounts of money for universities and private schools.

Palestinians could not benefit from humanitarian and development programs or receive treatment at the expense of the state, moreover, they were denied access to health insurance allowing them to receive treatment in government hospitals.

Palestinians wishing to work in any private business had to have an Egyptian partner of at least 51%.

A Palestinian could not own more than two buildings for private housing for himself and his family, the area of each property could not exceed four thousand square meters, while construction had to start within a period not exceeding the five years following the month of the act

https://prc.org.uk/en/post/3912/pale...ization-issues


Well... One nation is building a prosperous democratic country and the other elects Hamas as their government and endlessly complains about everything.

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Instead of using their vast wealth to help Palestinians build a state, Arab states and organizations chose to send weapons. The millions of dollars in rockets Hamas wastes every year could certainly be used for peaceful purposes that actually helps the population there.

Worse yet are the Hamas leaders, like Khalid Mashal who is worth almost $3B, sitting in their Qatar palaces while telling Palestinians in Gaza to throw themselves at the Jews and die.

Hamas has no interest in helping the average Palestinian. I imagine a bit of that fortune would have helped Gaza Palestinians. Instead Mashal is investing all that money in Gulf countries.

[Pointman]

Hamas was banned from Jordan back in 1999 because their terrorism was undermining peace process that Jordan, an Arabian Muslim country that is bordering West Bank, was rooting for.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/nov/22/israel

[Language]

There really is no point in arguing about who holds historic rights to the land that Israel, the West Bank and Gaza sits on. I know I’ve been guilty of getting sucked into the discussion in this thread myself, but it is actually irrelevant now and has been for quite some time now. Everyone can point to their arbitrary point in the historic timeline and base their argument from there. All that matters is looking at the map as it it today, and the situation at hand, as a basis for what happens in the future.

It will be interesting to see how this potential ground invasion plays out. This will be no cakewalk, with Gaza’s labyrinth of tunnels, booby traps and crammed quarters. If Hamas is successfully (and hopefully) eradicated, what happens then? Does Israel just pack up and go home? Hamas will be like cockroaches and will bubble to the surface over time eventually. What is the long term play? I doubt Israel has any willingness to govern Gaza.

Israel has amassed 300,000 troops along the Gaza border. In equivalent terms, this is larger than the US army per capita. Russia’s built up troops were 150,000 prior to their invasion of Ukraine, along a significantly larger front. This is a massive number Israel has assembled.

The hostage situation adds another layer of complexity. I think this will be one of the trickiest and most difficult wars in history. For my friends currently mobilized in the IDF, I’ll definitely be praying for them. But I’ve also never seen Israel as galvanized and united in quite some time. Still sickening to think about the atrocities committed that led to this situation, will be difficult to get over for a long time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

I hope one day you understand how absurd your statement is. Must Jews all share the same opinion? What motivated you to ask such a question?

I know many Jews with many opinions….and they can share that opinion freely.

What motivated me to ask such a question is that I would be curious if, taking two similar positions, one shared by a Jewish person and one not, you would treat them differently. If you would accuse one of hating Israel, and not the other. I got my answer, but I’m hoping it’s a good reminder that you should not automatically assume people who share those sentiments hate Israel or Jewish people.

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Hamas was banned from Jordan back in 1999 because their terrorism was undermining peace process that Jordan, an Arabian Muslim country that is bordering West Bank, was rooting for.



https://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/nov/22/israel

Hamas leaders made their fortunes marketing Jihad to people too dumb to realize continued hate is not a solution. They have a vested interest in continuing the death cult hate train.

The timing of the whole Hamas attack was likely motivated by the pending normalization of Saudi-israeli relationships. A desperate ploy by the fat Hamas leaders so they can continue siphoning off cash from jihadi donations and aid to Gaza.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by FlameOn

Worse yet are the Hamas leaders, like Khalid Mashal who is worth almost $3B, sitting in their Qatar palaces while telling Palestinians in Gaza to throw themselves at the Jews and die.

Hamas has no interest in helping the average Palestinian. I imagine a bit of that fortune would have helped Gaza Palestinians. Instead Mashal is investing all that money in Gulf countries.

Hamas literally dug up a bunch of water pipes that the EU had funded and turned them into rockets, a significant portion of which fall short and land in Gaza:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-ne...hamas-rockets/

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by FlameOn

Hamas leaders made their fortunes marketing Jihad to people too dumb to realize continued hate is not a solution. They have a vested in continuing the death cult hate train.

The timing of the whole Hamas attack was likely motivated by the pending normalization of Saudi-israeli relationships. A desperate ploy by the fat Hamas leaders so they can continue siphoning off cash from jihadi donations and aid to Gaza.

Yes. Hamas leadership are not even interested in taking back Palestine. Instead, they are interested in never-ending violence because they have learned how to get rich from it. It's clear for everyone, even Bernie Sanders, that Hamas couldn't care less about Palestine and their plight.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Forget Jews, Israel, partitioning and all. Here are Palestinians complaining about horrible living conditions,that Egyptians are subjecting them to:



https://prc.org.uk/en/post/3912/pale...ization-issues


Well... One nation is building a prosperous democratic country and the other elects Hamas as their government and endlessly complains about everything.

Wtf man? These are legitimate human rights issues.

You can't build a prosperous democratic country when you're deprived of a country.

[FlameOn]

Arab League calling for a resumption of talks on the two state solution. Same solution that was previously abandoned by the Palestinians when the PLO and Hamas split happened.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...state-solution

[FurnaceFace]

I was recently in Budapest and there were a couple of young ladies from Isreal in our group tour. We were laughing at them as they went through 5 bike helmets because they didn’t like the colours or the look of them. They also took some Instagram-like pictures and were posing.

I’ve thought of them a lot the last few days as I could see that festival being something they would attend. I’m hoping they are safe and able to pick out their favourite pink helmet for many future trips. I also hope the same for Palestinian women who would like to do the same. Ideology really sucks.

[transplant99]

Sounds like the ground assault has begun.

IDF goes into Jenin.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

What motivated me to ask such a question is that I would be curious if, taking two similar positions, one shared by a Jewish person and one not, you would treat them differently. If you would accuse one of hating Israel, and not the other. I got my answer, but I’m hoping it’s a good reminder that you should not automatically assume people who share those sentiments hate Israel or Jewish people.

You know what. Hamas leaders, unlike common members, don't really hate Israel or Jewish people. They are merely in business of siphoning off funds, that are being send to help Gaza. The gravy train cycle they set up is like this:

1. Sell "from river to sea" to Palestinians, make them attack Israel.

2. Conditions in Gaza become worse because of Israeli retaliations, such as blockade.

3. Whine about horrible conditions, so rich countries would send funds.

4. Steal funds.

5. Make Palestinians attack Israel again.

Rinse and repeat.

They don't really hate Jews and they couldn't care less about taking back Palestine. It's just business.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Wtf man? These are legitimate human rights issues.

You can't build a prosperous democratic country when you're deprived of a country.

You were not deprived of a country. You could build a democracy in Gaza and on the first elections you had you elected Hamas. Those proved to be the last elections you had. You do see the whole scheme of how Hamas leaders are manipulating you so they can steal more aid, don't you?

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Language

Israel has amassed 300,000 troops along the Gaza border. In equivalent terms, this is larger than the US army per capita. Russia’s built up troops were 150,000 prior to their invasion of Ukraine, along a significantly larger front. This is a massive number Israel has assembled.

I read that Hamas has 30,000 in their Gaza militia, plus a number of others that could join. A lot smaller than Israel's 300,000 there now, but when talking about guerilla urban warfare, that can be a lot to deal with.

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Wtf man? These are legitimate human rights issues.



You can't build a prosperous democratic country when you're deprived of a country.

Human rights issues aside, I will point out that there were elections scheduled in both the West Bank and Gaza. In Gaza Hamas got elected by a large majority, elections in the West Bank were cancelled by the PLO when it became clear Hamas would win there too.

How can you move toward a country in general, and the possible prosperity that would follow peace vs. continued unending conflict and destruction, when the vote was made towards continued violence instead of continued talks, compromise, and negotiation?

You cannot fully blame the other party for deprivation of a country when there was also a clear vote against establishing a country.