Do you also realize that palestinians aren't from saudi arabia?
To think all 300 million arabs from morocco to Oman all originated from a couple of tribes in Medina.
This is as silly as thinking all Hispanic people originated from Spain, or the quebecois homeland is paris.
I don't get this argument. Do you claim, that Palestinian Arabs are original peoples of Palestine? If so, this is historically wrong. It was, to simplify it, like this:
1. Jews were the first people in the land, along with some other nations, but Arabs were not among them. And Jerusalem was the capital of Jewish kingdom.
2. Romans conquered the land, creating a Jewish province of Judea.
3. Jews revolted, got massacred and expelled. Judea was renamed to Palestine. The word "Palestine" itself is hebrew, by the way. The land has become populated mostly with Romans, Greeks and some other local tribes, but Arabs were not among them.
4. Roman empire split in two. Byzantine (Eastern Roman Empire) now controls it. At that point Islam didn't even exit, but is soon to be born.
5. Arab Muslim caliphat conquers the middle east, including Palestine, but does not destroy Byzantine.
6. Ottomans destroy Byzantine and conquer many of their lands, including Palestine.
7. Britain defeats ottomans on WW1 and territory becomes mandatory Palestine.
8. Britain, being the owner of the land, splits it between Arabs and Jews. Modern Israel is created.
9. Arab countries declare war on Israel on the very next day, but Israel defeats them and actually gets more land, than was originally designated by Britain.
10. Arab countries keep trying to destroy Israel, but gradually realize, that peace is the better way.
Last edited by Pointman; 10-11-2023 at 07:39 PM.
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the problem with looking back 2000 years or 80 years is it's both pointless and morally irrelevant, I guess I can see why a Palestinian might be more emotionally invested in their Great Grandfathers land than a Jew in King Davids but neither of them lived on the land, both came by that land via conquest, the Greeks and Turks have just as good a claim frankly, the sad truth is all countries are created and held by force, Israel isnt going anywhere and they aren't going to give up anything as they know full well it wouldn't actually bring them peace and security.
If Palestinians want a better life now they will have to accept defeat and loss, ask for mercy from Israel and the world and try and get as many of their kids educated and out of the region as possible, essentially adopt the posture of Canadian natives, I fully understand why they wont do this but the alternative is things just get worse, there is no pathway for a Palestine that Palestinians actually want, there will be no substantial land given back in our lifetime and there will never be a right of return, just an endless cycle of violence and poverty for Palestinians and hardening right wing hatred in Israel.
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It is probably hard for someone who is not part of an ethno-religious group to understandbut our religion is directly tied to our ethnic identity hence why even after 2000 years the land of Israel remained the heart beat of our culture. The early Zionists were not religious in the slightest. Our ethnic identity is rooted to the levant, you can see it in DNA tests.
And with all that being said I still believe Palestinians are also entitled to the land but firmly hold the position that they had many opportunities after many wars waged to have their own state but wanted the terms as if they were the victors of war.
I disagree. You see, technically I am Jewish. I could claim Israeli citizenship if I wanted. But I am not religious. So your statement is flawed. You are speaking emotion with "heart beat of our culture".
In any case I don't feel I have any right to a land far from where I was born, in a country that didn't exist when my mom was born. You feel these things are inalienable, but you are incorrect. It only takes a person to decide what they do and do not want.
The Muslim army conquered Jerusalem, held by the Byzantine Romans, in November, 636. For four months the siege continued. Ultimately, the Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem, Sophronius, agreed to surrender Jerusalem to Caliph Umar in person. Caliph Umar, then at Medina, agreed to these terms and traveled to Jerusalem to sign the capitulation in the spring of 637
Help me understand your position here. Answer some questions for me. Were you born in the Middle East? Have you traced your lineage all the way back to the Middle East? What provenance do you have to lay claim to anything? I suspect it is only the fact that you are a Jew and your upbringing has told you these stories, and these stories are based on what is taught in the Torah. Unless you were born there or can trace your lineage back to a very specific place, what right do you or anyone not born in that region have to make claim to that land?
Isn't it time to let go of this "ethnic homeland" angle as it was something that is over two millennia old? Look at how much strife this thinking has caused. The land in question is also the "ethnic homeland" of the Palestinians. It would seem both are in the right and both are in the wrong. Shouldn't modern ownership rights (actual documented ownership) matter here and let the rest go?
My ancestors are made up of Holocaust survivors and Jews who fled to Israel because of the Holocaust. In a world where the was no Israel there was no safe haven for Jews. Do you want me to hold your hand and list off the genocides we have been through? You seem to have a big misunderstanding of Jewish history but we have been brutalized and systematically persecuted since our expulsion from Israel in the Jewish Diaspora. These are not stories, this is our peoples history. There are numerous genetic studies you can look up and find for yourself that will show that ethnic Jews from Europe, the middle east, and even parts of Africa are 50% or more Levantine. This is our land just as much as it is the Palestinians. We gave blood and lives to protect the country our people and religion derive from. The Palestinians are entitled to land but not at the expense of endangering our one and only safe haven in a world that has proven time and time again is not safe for Jews.
Even if Israel "wins" and claims the entire plot of land I don't see the wars ever ending. It's just the nature of the land. A few millenia of waged war over a chunk of land 2/3rds the size of Vancouver Island. It's far too precious to too many opposing Points of View. It'll end when religion dies. And when ppl stop letting history dictate their divisiveness, which isn't going to change since it hasn't in what....4000 years?
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I disagree. You see, technically I am Jewish. I could claim Israeli citizenship if I wanted. But I am not religious. So your statement is flawed. You are speaking emotion with "heart beat of our culture".
In any case I don't feel I have any right to a land far from where I was born, in a country that didn't exist when my mom was born. You feel these things are inalienable, but you are incorrect. It only takes a person to decide what they do and do not want.
And this is a message board where you can say anything. I promise you most Jews in my community and elsewhere feel similarly.
Genuinely curious if any of Nage, gvalty, or Beninho think Bernie is an anti-semite or hates Jewish people, as that has been the reaction to similar statements made here.
No one is 'entitled' to land, the sad truth is it belongs to whoever can capture and hold it, there may be a time in the future when Israel becomes weak and a resurgent Syria or Iran conquers it, but trust me it wont belong to Palestine then either, it will belong to Syria or Iran and they will almost certainly (like the Turks) treat Palestinians like a second class conquered people
Genuinely curious if any of Nage, gvalty, or Beninho think Bernie is an anti-semite or hates Jewish people, as that has been the reaction to similar statements made here.
He can think however he wants. There are Jews that are anti-Israel, I don’t agree with him. I did not call anyone in this thread an anti-semite
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The arabs were trying to find a peaceful way to integrate the Jewish community into the arab world.
Sure, that sounds plausible.
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Help me understand your position here. Answer some questions for me. Were you born in the Middle East? Have you traced your lineage all the way back to the Middle East? What provenance do you have to lay claim to anything? I suspect it is only the fact that you are a Jew and your upbringing has told you these stories, and these stories are based on what is taught in the Torah. Unless you were born there or can trace your lineage back to a very specific place, what right do you or anyone not born in that region have to make claim to that land?
Isn't it time to let go of this "ethnic homeland" angle as it was something that is over two millennia old? Look at how much strife this thinking has caused. The land in question is also the "ethnic homeland" of the Palestinians. It would seem both are in the right and both are in the wrong. Shouldn't modern ownership rights (actual documented ownership) matter here and let the rest go?
This. Arabs need to recognize that Israel exists and has rights to exist. Historical arguments should mean nothing AND Arabs also got historical arguments wrong anyway. They only complain about colonization that removed them from the land, but not about the one that brought them the land. Jews, at least, don't murder Italian children in revenge to Romans for expelling them from Palestine.
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Genuinely curious if any of Nage, gvalty, or Beninho think Bernie is an anti-semite or hates Jewish people, as that has been the reaction to similar statements made here.
Bernie is politician and the statement is clearly tailored to Palestine audience with the intention to reduce Palestinian support for Hamas. While facts in his message are half-truth at best (blockade is the result of Gazans electing Hamas, not the other way around), I definitely support the intention and overall message.
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Then they should take it to the ground to reduce civilian casualties, or just glass it.
Seems like indiscriminately bombing stuff is a half-measure
This is a reasonable debate. I think boots on ground is too risky for the Israeli soldiers. Perhaps Palestinians can point out where Hamas and their supporters are hiding? And if they refuse, back to bombing?
Israel I believe used civilians for this before but once again, everyone complained. This will only get worse. Iran currently laughing, not just at the death of jews but also everyone happy about it. Mission accomplished financing all this nonsense globally.
Like I said, there was never a reason to create an ethnostate exclusive to one master race. The arabs actually offered the creation of a binational state, which was promptly refused by the zionists.
The arabs were trying to find a peaceful way to integrate the Jewish community into the arab world. Yet the zionists had maximalist ideas to colonize the entire land. As for the Jewish refugees. That was only a result of the creation of Israel. Those refugees would not have existed without the partition of 48.
The creation of Israel in itself was an act of war, not the retaliation that followed.
See, Palestinians reiterate that the very existence of Israel is an act of war to them. This reinforces that Israel has no choice, but to fight for its own existence. It's like the very existence of Ukraine is a personal insult to Putin.
Thing is, EVEN if it was an act of war (it wasn't), it was 75 years ago. You conquered the land with an act of war at the first place. Then you got displaced with what you believe was an act of war in 1948. It's as if England would keep massacring German children as retaliation for bombing it during WW2, which was definitely an act of war and happened merely five years earlier.
Let it go.
Last edited by Pointman; 10-11-2023 at 08:18 PM.
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