Misinformation

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

Yeah, the carbon tax is great policy. It lets the market figure out the best way to reduce emissions.

It's way better than the current plan to ban natural gas plants except under a certain specific set of circumstances. Better to keep raising the price of carbon - if AB needs peaker gas plants we'll pay the tax, and if there is a cheaper way that would happen instead. Maybe it's cheaper to reduce co2 some other way.

According to the calculator, I make money from the carbon tax. That, in itself should say just how absurd this tax is.

If I profit from the carbon tax, what is the point?

[timun]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

Another good one;

Has the carbon tax helped with climate change?

Originally Posted by timun

Canada's federal pricing? No, because it's not high enough.

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

Seems you are one of the roughly 18% on Canadians that feels this way.

Just purely on the basis of "does this tax functionally result in its underlying purpose?" I don't think it works. And it seems so do you:

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

According to the calculator, I make money from the carbon tax. That, in itself should say just how absurd this tax is.

If I profit from the carbon tax, what is the point?

I also get a bigger rebate—a far bigger rebate—than I pay in carbon taxes. Functionally its intended purpose —to get me to reduce my consumption — isn't working. The rebate more than offsets my consumption, and even if we didn't have a rebate the price still isn't high enough in the first place to affect my consumption decisions.

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by timun

Just purely on the basis of "does this tax functionally result in its underlying purpose?" I don't think it works. And it seems so do you:



I also get a bigger rebate—a far bigger rebate—than I pay in carbon taxes. Functionality its intended purpose —to get me to reduce my consumption — isn't working. The rebate more than offsets my consumption, and even if we didn't have a rebate the price still isn't high enough in the first place to affect my consumption decisions.

Seems we mostly agree. We agree that the carbon tax doesn’t work.
Since it doesn’t work, I think it should be axed. You think it should be increased.

[timun]

I just think if you really want to effect change in people's consumption patterns you have to jack the price up to a level where it would affect a person's consumption patterns. If carbon is cheap people will continue to piss away fossil fuels like it doesn't matter. Myself included!

[#-3]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

Seems we mostly agree. We agree that the carbon tax doesn’t work.
Since it doesn’t work, I think it should be axed. You think it should be increased.

I offered a few examples of it working on a small scale. You didn't respond.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

Seems we mostly agree. We agree that the carbon tax doesn’t work.
Since it doesn’t work, I think it should be axed. You think it should be increased.

Why do you think it should be axed rather than tweaked to make it more impactful?

[Geraldsh]

Originally Posted by timun

I just think if you really want to effect change in people's consumption patterns you have to jack the price up to a level where it would affect a person's consumption patterns. If carbon is cheap people will continue to piss away fossil fuels like it doesn't matter. Myself included!

The price increase needs to be instant and dramatic. Small increments work like raising the water temperature to boil a frog - we learn to live with it until it’s too late.

I am now at the point where I think $1.40 per litre is reasonable and contentedly drive wherever I want.

[Brendone]

Originally Posted by Geraldsh

The price increase needs to be instant and dramatic. Small increments work like raising the water temperature to boil a frog - we learn to live with it until it’s too late.

I am now at the point where I think $1.40 per litre is reasonable and contentedly drive wherever I want.

If you’re that determined to kick yourself in your own junk ‘cause “yeah virtue signalling”, why don’t you donate $2/litre to charity every time you fill up?

Canada getting to net zero has no impact on global emissions, so I’ll keep my money until our efforts actually mean something… and no, other nations are not going to change because “Canada can do it!”.

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by #-3

I offered a few examples of it working on a small scale. You didn't respond.

Sorry for not responding, I didn’t realize it was directed at me.

You’re probably not going to believe this, but I agree with the majority of your post. I was already doing the furnace thing before the carbon tax. So there was no change in my world. My personal situation, an electric vehicle doesn’t work for me. Definitely not against electric vehicles, and will probably own one someday, but it simply will not work for me and my family’s current setup.

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by Wormius

Why do you think it should be axed rather than tweaked to make it more impactful?

I don’t know if it’s worth tweaking.

I think the carbon tax is the main reason food prices have skyrocketed in the past few years.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

I don’t know if it’s worth tweaking.

I think the carbon tax is the main reason food prices have skyrocketed in the past few years.

You are misinformed then:

The Bank of Canada said this month the carbon price contributes about 0.15 percentage points to inflation overall. That amount was the same whether inflation was at its peak of 8.1 per cent in June 2022 or 3.3 per cent in July. There is no clear figure for groceries. While the tax is not applied directly to food, and the bulk of carbon emissions from the agricultural sector are exempted, it can still indirectly raise costs of production and transportation of food.

University of Calgary economist Trevor Tombe estimates that the carbon tax is responsible for less than one per cent of grocery price increases.

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada...es-food-prices

You can sanity check this fact when you realize inflation is happening globally, including food, at rates similar or larger than Canada's.

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

You are misinformed then:


https://nationalpost.com/news/canada...es-food-prices

You can sanity check this fact when you realize inflation is happening globally, including food, at rates similar or larger than Canada's.

Estimates aren’t facts.

This is also from the article you posted.

“It’s very difficult to assess how the carbon tax is impacting food prices,” Charlebois said. Consumers have a huge influence and everything from the weather to people’s moods and time of day can affect prices. “We just don’t know. The work that was actually published in Canada is mediocre at best so far. So, we need to do a better job.”

Charlebois said that for businesses, the carbon tax has made their expenses go up. Throughout the food chain, he said, there’s a “compounding effect,” as links in the supply chain are exposed to increased costs due, in part, to the carbon tax.

From an opinion column;

Bank of Canada Governor Tiff Macklem tried to tell Canadians that the carbon tax only added to inflation at a rate of 0.15%.

That didn’t seem right and so Sylvain Charlebois, the Food Professor, asked the Bank for an explanation of how they arrived at that level. The answer is the Bank only calculates the impact of the tax on gas, heating oil and natural gas, they don’t look at its impact on other products or how it impacts prices as it is passed on through the supply chain to consumers.

That makes the 0.15% a false claim, one you shouldn’t believe.

https://canoe.com/opinion/columnists...6-9da68c1722d9

I’m not sure how I can be misinformed if the experts aren’t looking at the whole big picture.

I mean, you can drill down to everything from food packaging, cardboards, plastics suppliers, the operations and transportation of the goods that are used on so many levels that it is impossible to know.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

Estimates aren’t facts.

This is also from the article you posted.

From an opinion column;

https://canoe.com/opinion/columnists...6-9da68c1722d9

I’m not sure how I can be misinformed if the experts aren’t looking at the whole big picture.

I mean, you can drill down to everything from food packaging, cardboards, plastics suppliers, the operations and transportation of the goods that are used on so many levels that it is impossible to know.

You didn't explain how the carbon price has been instrumental in keeping food inflation in Canada low compared to peers without a cost reducing tax.

Despite Canadian food prices(opens in a new tab) reaching new heights in 2022, in comparison to other nations, Canada ranked the second lowest nation in the world for food inflation rate, according to the report.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/business/food...ions-1.6425009

[#-3]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

Sorry for not responding, I didn’t realize it was directed at me.

You’re probably not going to believe this, but I agree with the majority of your post. I was already doing the furnace thing before the carbon tax. So there was no change in my world. My personal situation, an electric vehicle doesn’t work for me. Definitely not against electric vehicles, and will probably own one someday, but it simply will not work for me and my family’s current setup.

The thing about a market is it's not supposed to cause a 100% change it's supposed to be a nudge that effects people on the margins. Consumer behaviour can't fix this problem on it's own, but it does need to be part of the solution, and we don't have the base infrastructure to switch everything overnight. If tomorrow every vehicle was an EV we would have charging capacity problems, massive layoffs and shutdowns of small business all over (gas stations). If every one of us ordered a heat pump to replace our AC, there would be a 10 year installation backlog. People need to be nudged into these changes faster and faster.

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by #-3

The thing about a market is it's not supposed to cause a 100% change it's supposed to be a nudge that effects people on the margins. Consumer behaviour can't fix this problem on it's own, but it does need to be part of the solution, and we don't have the base infrastructure to switch everything overnight. If tomorrow every vehicle was an EV we would have charging capacity problems, massive layoffs and shutdowns of small business all over (gas stations). If every one of us ordered a heat pump to replace our AC, there would be a 10 year installation backlog. People need to be nudged into these changes faster and faster.

I don’t disagree. Never said we should all be driving ev tomorrow. Just commenting on my personal situation.

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

You didn't explain how the carbon price has been instrumental in keeping food inflation in Canada low compared to peers without a cost reducing tax.


https://www.ctvnews.ca/business/food...ions-1.6425009

The world is a big place.

Why do you suppose the US, our closest neighbor and trading partner has the lowest food inflation numbers??

I highly doubt it’s because of their huge carbon tax.

[#-3]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

I don’t disagree. Never said we should all be driving ev tomorrow. Just commenting on my personal situation.

But you are generalizing your personal situation and complaining that the carbon tax doesn't work, when economic theory behind it is sound and well established and you have no evidence that it doesn't work. So I don't know what you are complaining about. Right now you are paying a premium for the privilege of being a late mover for a situation where we are stuck forcing some people to be early movers, because we need early movers or we're screwed. But even better than that, you are paying for the privilege and being refunded for paying it.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

The world is a big place.

Why do you suppose the US, our closest neighbor and trading partner has the lowest food inflation numbers??

I highly doubt it’s because of their huge carbon tax.

Have you been to the US? Are groceries that much cheaper? I dunno. We were down in Montana over the summer and I wouldn’t say it was any more affordable than here.

[#-3]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

The world is a big place.

Why do you suppose the US, our closest neighbor and trading partner has the lowest food inflation numbers??

I highly doubt it’s because of their huge carbon tax.

Probably because on average their food inflation number was higher than Canadas in 20/21/22 so there was a regression effect in 2023, and if you draw a 5 year trend line they are still pacing slightly ahead of us in food inflation?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

The world is a big place.

Why do you suppose the US, our closest neighbor and trading partner has the lowest food inflation numbers??

I highly doubt it’s because of their huge carbon tax.

I'm not going to pretend to know the details of the why, but if I had to guess, it's because transportation was a big issue through covid, and we get a lot of our food from them, so it has to go further to get to us. The point is, many other nations without carbon taxes also see food inflation so there is ample evidence that the carbon tax isn't a big influence on it.