Actually yes, he pretty much did. By claiming I'm being overly dramatic, he's implying that I've overestimated the severity and long-term implications of this incident.
Is it as bad as the very worst atrocities this country has committed in the past? Of course not. But it's on the tier right below those.
Oh, I see. Providing rocket fuel to the Russian propaganda machine is no biggie because... residential schools.
Nobody is saying it's not a big deal. The speaker doesn't resign if he did nothing wrong. It was an embarrassing blunder, an unforced error. He was right to step down. I'd like to see an apology from our PM as well.
But in the grand scheme of things in the history of this country a lot worse has happened.
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I would say that. In fact I'd go further and say that giving Russia ammunition for propaganda is more or less irrelevant; they make up so much stuff as it is, this makes no difference. And trying to equate whatever minuscule propaganda benefit they will reap from this with the things rubecube mentioned is so far out there, I don't even know what to say.
The issue with this whole thing is that they were honoring a guy who fought with the Nazis. If the Russia-Ukraine war wasn't happening, it would be just as ridiculous. But it's not going to turn the tide of a war or change who the US elects as President.
Obviously the right thing to do but it's going to be a nauseating question period with the CPC demanding an apology from the PM himself Karina Gould trying to act like he had nothing to do with the LPC, they've done nothing wrong and everyone should just forget about this and move on.
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Actually yes, he pretty much did. By claiming I'm being overly dramatic, he's implying that I've overestimated the severity and long-term implications of this incident.
Is it as bad as the very worst atrocities this country has committed in the past? Of course not. But it's on the tier right below those.
It's a good thing you're a math god, because your reading comprehension is terrible.
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Actually yes, he pretty much did. By claiming I'm being overly dramatic, he's implying that I've overestimated the severity and long-term implications of this incident.
Is it as bad as the very worst atrocities this country has committed in the past? Of course not. But it's on the tier right below those.
Saying you’ve overestimated the severity and long-term implications of this incident is not the same as saying it’s “no big deal.” By framing it the way you did, you created a vast chasm of severity between your interpretation and “no big deal.”
Even suggesting it is on a tier right below residential schools is completely absurd. It’s not an “atrocity” at all, it’s an embarrassment, but one that will ultimately have minimal impact on Russia’s war on Ukraine. Giving Russia something they can use is almost meaningless, given their habit of already using anything and everything and outright lying. Do you honestly believe that after a year and a half Russian people are going to think “omg, Putin was right all along!” because of this incident? That’s a severe stretch.
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Saying you’ve overestimated the severity and long-term implications of this incident is not the same as saying it’s “no big deal.” By framing it the way you did, you created a vast chasm of severity between your interpretation and “no big deal.”
While no one has directly said it's no big deal, but the overall vibe of this thread has been to downplay as much as possible the severity of what happened yesterday.
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Even suggesting it is on a tier right below residential schools is completely absurd. It’s not an “atrocity” at all, it’s an embarrassment, but one that will ultimately have minimal impact on Russia’s war on Ukraine. Giving Russia something they can use is almost meaningless, given their habit of already using anything and everything and outright lying. Do you honestly believe that after a year and a half Russian people are going to think “omg, Putin was right all along!” because of this incident? That’s a severe stretch.
Based on everything I've been seeing, reading, and hearing since 2014, it's clear to me that the Russian propaganda machine is corroding the western world from the inside out. It's largely why Trump won in 2016 and is poised to make a return to the WH soon.
And that's the part you completely seemed to miss here. I'm not concerned about Putin using this as propaganda to fool the Russian people... I'm concerned about Putin using this to hoodwink more and more people within NATO countries to see Zelenskyy and the Ukrainian government as people who can't be trusted and therefore aren't deserving of arms & materiel from allied countries. And all indications are that Ukraine needs support from its allies to continue to be steadfast for quite some time in order to stand a realistic chance of winning this war. Russia winning this war and taking all of Ukraine for itself would be disastrous for the world, and I don't think I need to explain why.
When you look at the US, multiple polls seem to indicate that Trump has a very strong chance at retaking the WH just over 13 months from now. And there's the worry - more and more people might think that Ukraine is not deserving of any more help from the west, and voting for Trump is the only way to stop the US from spending more on helping Ukraine.
Anyways, it's pretty clear to me that if Trump wins in 2024, that will be the beginning of the end of the era of modern liberal democracies. With zero world superpowers as democracies left in the world, it's only a matter of time before the remaining democracies lose their ability to determine their own fates and will succumb to a world completely taken over by fascism and rabid right-wing ideology.
The world is at pivotal moment right now, and it's of vital importance that the wrong path not be taken.
But as a Russia expert, and senior Liberal with leadership ambitions, you gotta think this has been politically damaging to Freeland. She’s top of the list of the adults in the room who should have known better.
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If Canada is going to have such an allergy to anything with even the slightest hint of Nazism, why haven't companies like Hugo Boss and BMW/Audi/VW been shut down for outfitting and arming the Wehrmacht?
While no one has directly said it's no big deal, but the overall vibe of this thread has been to downplay as much as possible the severity of what happened yesterday.
Based on everything I've been seeing, reading, and hearing since 2014, it's clear to me that the Russian propaganda machine is corroding the western world from the inside out. It's largely why Trump won in 2016 and is poised to make a return to the WH soon.
And that's the part you completely seemed to miss here. I'm not concerned about Putin using this as propaganda to fool the Russian people... I'm concerned about Putin using this to hoodwink more and more people within NATO countries to see Zelenskyy and the Ukrainian government as people who can't be trusted and therefore aren't deserving of arms & materiel from allied countries. And all indications are that Ukraine needs support from its allies to continue to be steadfast for quite some time in order to stand a realistic chance of winning this war. Russia winning this war and taking all of Ukraine for itself would be disastrous for the world, and I don't think I need to explain why.
When you look at the US, multiple polls seem to indicate that Trump has a very strong chance at retaking the WH just over 13 months from now. And there's the worry - more and more people might think that Ukraine is not deserving of any more help from the west, and voting for Trump is the only way to stop the US from spending more on helping Ukraine.
Anyways, it's pretty clear to me that if Trump wins in 2024, that will be the beginning of the end of the era of modern liberal democracies. With zero world superpowers as democracies left in the world, it's only a matter of time before the remaining democracies lose their ability to determine their own fates and will succumb to a world completely taken over by fascism and rabid right-wing ideology.
The world is at pivotal moment right now, and it's of vital importance that the wrong path not be taken.
Even in a situation where your alarmist worldview was close to reality, it is still absurd to point to this incident and describe it in any of the ways you did or to frame it as some sort of turning point for the entire world. Of course taking a reactionary, alarmist view of a fairly benign situation is going to make every reaction less than that seem like it’s downplaying it or dismissing it as “no big deal.” But that’s not what people have been doing.
Thinking that NATO countries are suddenly going to change course because MPs from Canada make a completely embarrassing mistake that pretty much anyone can recognize as a mistake (especially our allies)… all because Russia says it wasn’t a mistake… is more absurd that the first conclusion I thought you were making.
If you’re making any connection between this, Trump, and the end of liberal democracy, I think it’s honestly time to take a step back and a deep breath, because that’s not a healthy thought cycle.
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If Canada is going to have such an allergy to anything with even the slightest hint of Nazism, why haven't companies like Hugo Boss and BMW/Audi/VW been shut down for outfitting and arming the Wehrmacht?
So you think a Waffen SS unit has a "slight hint of Nazism"?
The Wehrmacht isn't the same as the Waffen SS.
Come on, it would be a better look to own it and say that it isn't a good look on the history of Ukraine and that the nation strives to be better.
PS you forgot Fanta
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Last edited by undercoverbrother; 09-26-2023 at 03:09 PM.
And that's the part you completely seemed to miss here. I'm not concerned about Putin using this as propaganda to fool the Russian people... I'm concerned about Putin using this to hoodwink more and more people within NATO countries to see Zelenskyy and the Ukrainian government as people who can't be trusted and therefore aren't deserving of arms & materiel from allied countries.
Hasn't PP hinted that he would withdraw support for Ukraine?
Even in a situation where your alarmist worldview was close to reality, it is still absurd to point to this incident and describe it in any of the ways you did or to frame it as some sort of turning point for the entire world. Of course taking a reactionary, alarmist view of a fairly benign situation is going to make every reaction less than that seem like it’s downplaying it or dismissing it as “no big deal.” But that’s not what people have been doing.
Thinking that NATO countries are suddenly going to change course because MPs from Canada make a completely embarrassing mistake that pretty much anyone can recognize as a mistake (especially our allies)… all because Russia says it wasn’t a mistake… is more absurd that the first conclusion I thought you were making.
If you’re making any connection between this, Trump, and the end of liberal democracy, I think it’s honestly time to take a step back and a deep breath, because that’s not a healthy thought cycle.
Oh wow And I'm the one being accused of lacking reading comprehension skills.
You've got my position wrong again, and on top of it you've borrowed the "alarmist" term straight from the climate change denial playbook. Nicely done.
I should have known from your barrage of sarcastic remarks yesterday that you weren't interested in having a real conversation.
Obviously the right thing to do but it's going to be a nauseating question period with the CPC demanding an apology from the PM himself Karina Gould trying to act like he had nothing to do with the LPC, they've done nothing wrong and everyone should just forget about this and move on.
Called it. I mean not that it was a particularly tough call.
__________________ "The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
It's kind of typical progression for a scandal from this government. Start gently, and work up from there...slowly. They do it over and over. By the end of it everyone is so fatigued they have almost forgotten the original issue, and no one can muster much more rage for it. As a strategy it works remarkably well for them.
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And I'm the one being accused of lacking reading comprehension skills.
