Edmonton is No Good X: Up and Down Like a Toilet Seat

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

What's with the obsession with minutes played?

Lots of top players have played big minutes over the years.

Just look at Iginla's minutes through his peak:

22:21
21:25
21:18
21:41
22:03
21:26
21:36

He played 23:18 during his Cup run.

And one PO series of significance. Look at that list of forwards with big minutes last year - how well did their teams do in the POs?

Rantanen you could argue had to carry a bigger load with Mackinnon out a lot and with Landeskog missing, and with no Kadri. The rest play on teams that didn't go very far (or didn't make the POs at all).

[stang]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

Either way, the Oilers roster is worse this season than it started off last season, and will likely struggle to make the playoffs.

I’ll take that bet.

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

Because its clear that the Oilers would be a better team overall if the Oilers top players played less minutes (ie cut out the minutes that they float and are useless).

However they are built so poorly that they don't have anyone else to be effective in those minutes.

Either way, the Oilers roster is worse this season than it started off last season, and will likely struggle to make the playoffs.

Its just weird that you guys have created this idea that players can't play lots of minutes per night effectively.

Kopitar has averaged 21:52 through the playoffs in his career.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

Its just weird that you guys have created this idea that players can't play lots of minutes per night effectively.

Kopitar has averaged 21:52 through the playoffs in his career.

I'm more fixated on the Oilers having McDavid and Draisaitl all these years and not winning anything. Not even a division title. Two generational players and nothing to show for it.

[sketchyt]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I'm more fixated on the Oilers having McDavid and Draisaitl all these years and not winning anything. Not even a division title. Two generational players and nothing to show for it.

If those guys are playing that many minutes, it just means they're ever rarely skating below the hashmarks in the dzone LOL.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I'm more fixated on the Oilers having McDavid and Draisaitl all these years and not winning anything. Not even a division title. Two generational players and nothing to show for it.

Right.

This is extremely awkward:

Connor McDavid: 8 seasons, 569 games, 49 playoff games
Leon Draisaitl: 9 seasons, 638 games, 49 playoff games

Draisaitl will likely play in his 700th game this year, and he will be 28-years-old already before the end of October.

By his eighth season Sidney Crosby had already won a Stanley Cup, two Conference Championships, three Division Titles, an Olympic Gold Medal.
By his eighth season Alexander Ovechkin had won four Division Titles.
By his eighth season Nathan MacKinnon had won a Division Title.
By his eighth season Evgeni Malkin had already won a Stanley Cup, a Conn Smythe Trophy, two Conference Championships, four Division Titles.

Connor McDavid has won a World Championship gold medal, and a WJC gold medal, which are things that all of these other players have done as well.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

Its just weird that you guys have created this idea that players can't play lots of minutes per night effectively.

Kopitar has averaged 21:52 through the playoffs in his career.

Kopitar got those minutes in his prime because he worked three duties, Ev, PP and PK.


Truth is 5-5 McDavid plays as much as anyone else, but it is his massive power play shifts that bring up the average. The fact that McDavid plays only 1:16 a game on the PK and still leads the league in minutes is crazy, you have to admit.

But comparing player to player isn't useful in a debate of team success.

The big difference is that the kings had the best D man in the league and a future hall of fame goalie. The kings were a great team, top to bottom, a real lunch pale group of players. They would grind teams down, and some times look like they were willing their team to victory.

The Oilers play like a flash in a pan, and most of that depends on getting power plays. don't get me wrong, I would choose them in a foot race, but not a war.

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by sketchyt

If those guys are playing that many minutes, it just means they're ever rarely skating below the hashmarks in the dzone LOL.

Is that true for Kopitar as well?

I get it if McDrai were playing 2 minutes more than everyone else like Kovalchuk was doing in 2013, but we are talking about a difference of 30 seconds or less between them and other players.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

Is that true for Kopitar as well?

I get it if McDrai were playing 2 minutes more than everyone else like Kovalchuk was doing in 2013, but we are talking about a difference of 30 seconds or less between them and other players.

Let’s compare head to head their ice time distribution average at the peak of team success

Kopitar in the 2013-14 season. Kopitar is 27 the Kings are the cup champions.
15:28 EV 3:23 PP 2:00 PK
Total 20:51

McDavid in the 2022-23 season. McDavid is 26 the Oilers make the semi finals
17:11 EV 3:55PP 1:16 PK
Total 22:23

Don’t get me wrong, Kopitar in later years played much larger minutes, but the team also did much worse. Point is, one or two guys playing that much is not a sign of a healthy team composition.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

Let’s compare head to head their ice time distribution average at the peak of team success

Kopitar in the 2013-14 season. Kopitar is 27 the Kings are the cup champions.
15:28 EV 3:23 PP 2:00 PK
Total 20:51

McDavid in the 2022-23 season. McDavid is 26 the Oilers make the semi finals
17:11 EV 3:55PP 1:16 PK
Total 22:23

Don’t get me wrong, Kopitar in later years played much larger minutes, but the team also did much worse. Point is, one or two guys playing that much is not a sign of a healthy team composition.

Kopitar also played PK I bet, so add a bunch of time for that.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Kopitar also played PK I bet, so add a bunch of time for that.

No, not a bunch more, only 30 or 40 season more, so 1.5 shifts. Which makes sense, most teams want their top scorers the first shift after a PK is over.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

No, not a bunch more, only 30 or 40 season more, so 1.5 shifts. Which makes sense, most teams want their top scorers the first shift after a PK is over.

I was guessing a two way C like Kopitar played a fair bit of PK. I stand to be corrected.

I mean, McDavid gets PK time (at the 1:50 mark of a minor usually).

[TheIronMaiden]

I am having fun comparing the ATOI of McDavid and Kopitar

Kopitar has played over 22:00 ATOI 2 times in his 17 year career.
2017-18 Kings lose in round one
2018-19 Kings finish 2nd last in the NHL


McDavid has played over 22:00 ATOI 4 times in his 8 year career
2018-19 Oilers finish second last in the division
2020-21 Oilers lose in first round
2021-22 Oilers lose semi finals
2022-23 Oilers lose in second round


I am not sure this comparison means much except that when Kopitar was playing his career most minutes, his team was not good. Conversely he Oilers have had decent team success despite much imbalanced ice time distribution.

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

Let’s compare head to head their ice time distribution average at the peak of team success

Kopitar in the 2013-14 season. Kopitar is 27 the Kings are the cup champions.
15:28 EV 3:23 PP 2:00 PK
Total 20:51

McDavid in the 2022-23 season. McDavid is 26 the Oilers make the semi finals
17:11 EV 3:55PP 1:16 PK
Total 22:23

Don’t get me wrong, Kopitar in later years played much larger minutes, but the team also did much worse. Point is, one or two guys playing that much is not a sign of a healthy team composition.

The Kings were also Cup champions when Kopitar played 22 minutes per game.

Zetterberg averaged 22 minutes per night when the Wings went to back to back finals.

Martin St.Louis was always top five in minutes per game.

This isn't really anything unusual.

[ComixZone]

I think a lot of Edmonton's lack of success has to do with Peter Chiarelli (although the same vein, it must also run in the water and be influencing their owner).

Chiarelli was a horrific manager and knee-capped the organization. I'd also argue that the first stretch of Ken Holland was quite bad.

I've long argued that winning a Cup is easy. Draft franchise players at the top of the draft, and then simply be one of the best managed teams in all of hockey...the Oilers, with Chiarelli, took a decidedly different route. They decided to be the worst managed hockey team for 1,370 days (Chiarelli's time at the helm).

To begin:

April 24th, 2015:
To BOS: 2017 2nd round pick
To EDM: Peter Chiarelli

Oilers send the Boston Bruins a 2017 2nd round pick for permission to sign Peter Chiarelli. Woof.

June 26, 2015:
To NYI: 2015 1st round pick (confirmed 16th Overall), 2015 2nd round pick (confirmed 33rd overall)
To EDM: Griffin Reinhart

Griffin would go on to play a whopping 29 games in 2015-16, and then never played in the NHL again.

June 27th, 2015:
To NYR: 2015 2nd round pick (confirmed 57th overall), 2015 3rd round pick (confirmed 79th overall), 2015 7th round pick (confirmed 184th overall)
To EDM: Cam Talbot, 2015 7th round pick (confirmed 209th overall)

This trade isn't bad, but Edmonton's poor defensive structure nearly ruined Talbot's promising career - and absolutely did longterm damage to it.

June 27th, 2015:
To SJ: 2015 3rd round pick (confirmed 86th Overall)
To EDM: Todd McLellan

The Oilers spent yet another pick on staff. So to hire Chiarelli and McLellan, the Oilers lost a 2nd and 3rd round pick. Yikes.

June 27th, 2015:
To OTT: Travis Ewanyk, 2015 4th round pick (confirmed 107th overall)
To EDM: Eric Gryba

In signing Chiarelli, the Oilers lost a 2nd round pick. Chiarelli then immediately went out and spent 7 draft picks (including one for his coach). That's absolutely insane, and incredibly short sighted. That Reinhart trade is enough to sidetrack a rebuild.

The madness didn't end there though.

June 29th, 2016:
To NJD: Taylor Hall
To EDM: Adam Larsson

One of the worst trades of the past decade (right alongside that Reinhart deal). Making a move this bad is hilarious.

Other highlights include:

June 22, 2017:
To NYI: Jordan Eberle
To EDM: Ryan Strome

Ryan Strome played 100 games for the Oilers and put up a whopping 36 points. Eventually, Chiarelli then did this doozy:

November 16th, 2018:
To NYR: Ryan Strome
To EDM: Ryan Spooner

Ryan Spooner played 25 games and collected 3 points for the Edmonton Oilers. Meanwhile Ryan Strome went on to produce 195 points across 263 games for the Rangers.

The lunacy on display by Chiarelli over those 1,370 days is probably one of the best gifts Flames fans could have ever receieved...and then we just have to remember that on the same day Chiarelli made that Reinhart trade, the Flames had acquired Dougie Hamilton from New Jersey.

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Originally Posted by stang

I’ll take that bet.

Just remember to stick around and concede defeat if (when) you lose.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

The Kings were also Cup champions when Kopitar played 22 minutes per game.

Zetterberg averaged 22 minutes per night when the Wings went to back to back finals.

Martin St.Louis was always top five in minutes per game.

This isn't really anything unusual.

Kopitar played 21:20 ATOI in the 2011-12 season. Is that a huge difference from 22 minutes probably not. But circling back to my original point. Even though Kopitar was playing a lot, the Kings were being carried by Doughty and Quick.

Doughty averaged an insane 24:54 a game.

So yeah, you can totally depend on your top guys to play huge minutes and have team success. But the kings have not always dipped into that well.

Only 7 of Kopitars 17 seasons see him played over 21:00 minutes a night.


McDavid has played that amount 7 of 8 season. That one season being his rookie year.

[ComixZone]

Ah why not, and here's how Ken Holland's time began in Edmonton:

Hired on May 7th, 2019:

July 19th, 2019:
To CGY: Milan Lucic ($750K retained salary), 2021 3rd round pick
To EDM: James Neal

James Neal would go on to play 84 games for the Oilers and put up 41 points before being bought out in 2021. James Neal's buyout will count as $1.917M against the Oilers cap this season as well as next season. Chef's kiss.

Holland then made his mark with this absolute beauty:

February 24, 2020:
To DET: Sam Gagner ($315K retained), 2020 2nd round pick, 2021 2nd round pick
To EDM: Andreas Athanasiou, Ryan Kuffner

Athanasiou would end up playing a whopping 9 regular season games (2 points), and 4 play-in games (0 points) before not being qualified and ultimately signing with the LAK.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

The Kings were also Cup champions when Kopitar played 22 minutes per game.

Zetterberg averaged 22 minutes per night when the Wings went to back to back finals.

Martin St.Louis was always top five in minutes per game.

This isn't really anything unusual.

I think it is more about the harder minutes. PK and PP is less skating and more standing around. The extra minutes there aren't as physically tiring. The only concern with the PK is shot blocking and the toll it can take on you.

5 on 5 is harder minutes. Kopitar gets big minutes because he plays big minutes on both the PK and PP. McDavid plays tons on the PP not as much on the PK

Kopitar had 3 years in a row in the PO's where the Kings went deep and twice won the cup and he was getting 21, 21 and 22 mins a night.

McDavid has been 23+ the last 2 years and Leon has been 21 and 23 mins a night. Both players looked out of gas by the time they were eliminated from the playoffs.

IMO I wish the Flames would play the PP1 like the Oilers do, it's easier minutes for your stars and guys like Backlund and Coleman are great 5 on 5. But the Oilers play their big guns too much to win. Colorado played MacKinnon and Rantanen extra minutes last year vs their cup year and they lost. Might be because players are tired, or the depth is just not good enough to win. The Oilers haven't fixed this in many years, they still have guys that only play well due to who they play with.

[Jethro Choicebro]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

April 24th, 2015:
To BOS: 2017 2nd round pick
To EDM: Peter Chiarelli

Oilers send the Boston Bruins a 2017 2nd round pick for permission to sign Peter Chiarelli. Woof.

That genuinely made me lol...I had no idea they spent a 2nd to sign him.

Hilarious, and of course No Good!