MacKenzie Weegar rocks

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Yes I don't think he was diligent in pursuing a better deal from Carolina or St Louis in comparison to what they initially offered, not in comparison to what Florida offered. We know the trade happened in 4 days. We know he had to have initial talks with Tkachuk, initial talks with all teams on his list, actually work out the Florida deal, allow Tkachuk to work out the contract. I'd say it's safe to say negotiations with St Louis and Carolina were a small percentage of those 4 days. So ya I don't think he saw their best offers. AGAIN, not saying he could have got a better deal than Florida's, I'm saying he likely could have got a better deal than their initial offers. I think both St Louis and Carolina could have gave packages with way more youth which I think would have been better for the team in the long run, even if it wasn't as good in the short term. The Flames likely don't go out and sign Kadri in that scenario too.

StL and CAR had the opportunity to give their best offers. Those best offers fell short. Spending hours and days negotiating back and forth wouldn’t have changed anything.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Yes I don't think he was diligent in pursuing a better deal from Carolina or St Louis in comparison to what they initially offered, not in comparison to what Florida offered. We know the trade happened in 4 days. We know he had to have initial talks with Tkachuk, initial talks with all teams on his list, actually work out the Florida deal, allow Tkachuk to work out the contract. I'd say it's safe to say negotiations with St Louis and Carolina were a small percentage of those 4 days. So ya I don't think he saw their best offers. AGAIN, not saying he could have got a better deal than Florida's, I'm saying he likely could have got a better deal than their initial offers. I think both St Louis and Carolina could have gave packages with way more youth which I think would have been better for the team in the long run, even if it wasn't as good in the short term. The Flames likely don't go out and sign Kadri in that scenario too.

So hardest working GM got laser focused on one team and didn't circle back because you just think so?

Such a strange thing to push a narrative with zero facts.

Even stranger when the narrative is contrary to the history and reputation of the subject.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Yes I don't think he was diligent in pursuing a better deal from Carolina or St Louis in comparison to what they initially offered, not in comparison to what Florida offered. We know the trade happened in 4 days. We know he had to have initial talks with Tkachuk, initial talks with all teams on his list, actually work out the Florida deal, allow Tkachuk to work out the contract. I'd say it's safe to say negotiations with St Louis and Carolina were a small percentage of those 4 days. So ya I don't think he saw their best offers. AGAIN, not saying he could have got a better deal than Florida's, I'm saying he likely could have got a better deal than their initial offers. I think both St Louis and Carolina could have gave packages with way more youth which I think would have been better for the team in the long run, even if it wasn't as good in the short term. The Flames likely don't go out and sign Kadri in that scenario too.

I think all this talk about diligence and whatever narrative you have tried to spin here is pure nonsense. Your point about the Carolina deal probably being best for the team long term is likely true but that is only thanks to the benefit of hindsight.

Here is what we know:
1- Flames had a roster with the runners up for both the Selke and Vezina
2- a mid 20’s forward coming off 35 goals
3- mid 20’s top pair D who combined for 98pts
4- HOF coach here for unfinished business fresh off a Jack Adams win
5- deep defense and solid depth like Toffoli, Backlund, Coleman, Dube
6- the market up north that just eliminated the Flames were boasting they had beat the Flames into a rebuild

They had an offer from Florida that allowed them to add the 4th highest scoring forward over the previous 4 years and the same age and draft as the elite playmaker they just lost in Free agency coming off the exact same point total and record for assists in a season by a LW. Also they had an opportunity to upgrade their blueline and replace the 3rd pairing guy they lost with a top pair guy while also getting a prospect and 1at round pick. To try and push the team over the top the future pick was flipped to dump Monahan and add Kadri who was going to strengthen the center ice position coming off an amazing campaign and cup win. Kadri also was going to replace some of the pest that was lost with the Tkachuk trade.

End of the day any time a team loses one of their franchise players for nothing and the other is forcing a trade it makes sense to rebuild and if you believe Bean they debated it with the Hurricanes offer. When the dust settled on the summer of Brad it appeared he replaced Gaudreau with an equal or better player, improved the center ice position and blueline at the expense of a big loss on the wing which he somewhat insulated by acquiring Toffoli earlier that year. With how bad last season went it sure makes the rebuild path look like the one they should have took but the moves they made did make a lot of sense at the time. Markstrom, Huberdeau, Mangiapane having brutal seasons and the Flames lost 30 one goal games. Those 3 guys have better years the Flames are winning the Pacific again

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

You are the one who talked about percentages. He had a limited time to spend on the whole matter, but you have no information about how he allocated that time among the different tasks involved. You pulled that part out of your arse.

Based on what you have offered on this forum under the rubric of reasoning, I see no evidence that you ever deal in concepts that I would find difficult. Mind you, I don't know what you do for a living: if it involves higher mathematics, then I cheerfully admit I haven't got the background to deal with some of the concepts that arise from that. But percentages are not higher mathematics.



You yourself admitted that the St. Louis and Carolina offers were greatly inferior to the Florida one, and you yourself said he wasn't going to match the Florida offer by continuing to negotiate with those teams. Nuance doesn't enter into it when the offers aren't even close.

Do you even read your own posts before sneering at other people's responses?

So if I have no information on how he allocated his time, do you? We know he had to spend time talking to Tkachuks camp on what the options were. We know he had to spend time talking to all the teams on his list. We know he had likely had to spend a decent amount of time working out the Florida deal. We know he had to allow Tkachuk time to actually work the contract with Florida. So why don't you tell me how much time out of the four days you would guess he spent on negotiating with St Louis and Carolina?

Necas alone could outperform Huberdeau over the next 8 years while on a cheaper contract. So far after the first year he is. Necas is 24, Huberdeau is 30. That's a big difference moving forward. So even if they traded Tkachuk straight up for Necas, things aren't cut and dry. In 5 years when Necas is 29 and Huberdeau is 35 what does their play look like in comparison? So yes I do believe if Treliving focused on a futures oriented package it would have been better for the Flames long term, even if the perceived value at the moment of the trade was viewed as less. You know because there is actually is nuance to value.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

I think all this talk about diligence and whatever narrative you have tried to spin here is pure nonsense. Your point about the Carolina deal probably being best for the team long term is likely true but that is only thanks to the benefit of hindsight.

Here is what we know:
1- Flames had a roster with the runners up for both the Selke and Vezina
2- a mid 20’s forward coming off 35 goals
3- mid 20’s top pair D who combined for 98pts
4- HOF coach here for unfinished business fresh off a Jack Adams win
5- deep defense and solid depth like Toffoli, Backlund, Coleman, Dube
6- the market up north that just eliminated the Flames were boasting they had beat the Flames into a rebuild

They had an offer from Florida that allowed them to add the 4th highest scoring forward over the previous 4 years and the same age and draft as the elite playmaker they just lost in Free agency coming off the exact same point total and record for assists in a season by a LW. Also they had an opportunity to upgrade their blueline and replace the 3rd pairing guy they lost with a top pair guy while also getting a prospect and 1at round pick. To try and push the team over the top the future pick was flipped to dump Monahan and add Kadri who was going to strengthen the center ice position coming off an amazing campaign and cup win. Kadri also was going to replace some of the pest that was lost with the Tkachuk trade.

End of the day any time a team loses one of their franchise players for nothing and the other is forcing a trade it makes sense to rebuild and if you believe Bean they debated it with the Hurricanes offer. When the dust settled on the summer of Brad it appeared he replaced Gaudreau with an equal or better player, improved the center ice position and blueline at the expense of a big loss on the wing which he somewhat insulated by acquiring Toffoli earlier that year. With how bad last season went it sure makes the rebuild path look like the one they should have took but the moves they made did make a lot of sense at the time. Markstrom, Huberdeau, Mangiapane having brutal seasons and the Flames lost 30 one goal games. Those 3 guys have better years the Flames are winning the Pacific again

I actually agree with most of this. I think the team just came off a really strong season, and they were somewhat caught off guard, losing their two top players. Realistically, they should have seen this coming as a very realistic possibility. I do think there was a reluctance to rebuild one because of the season they just had, but also because of pride. It seems like Edwards was really pissed at Johnny and Tkachuk probably added to that only a few days later. There was probably anger and embarassment in the organization.

I think the Florida package was offered, and it probably surprised them a bit. I don't think they expected an offer that could potentially have them bounce back as competitive so quickly. But it's because of all of that, I think they blocked out other options and went full steam ahead with the Florida deal and then signing Kadri.

Which is why I don't think they really tried hard for other deals once the Florida package was offered. They liked the deal and that was that. That's why everything happened in 4 days which is very fast for any deal, let alone a 24-year-old 100 pts player. Even if St Louis offered up Kyrou I'm not so sure if they would have even taken it. Even if Necas and Jarvis was offered, I'm not sure if they take it. I think they wanted to get back to where they just were as quick as possible, and I think viewed Huberdeau and Weegar as being able to achieve that best.

So yes I can understand why they may have chose this path but I don't think its hindsight to second guess it either. They know they could have traded Tkachuk for a futures package. They could have traded Lindholm and Hanifin with 2 years left on sweet heart deals for good packages. They likely drop into the top 5-10 of a very deep draft last year. They have a good amount of UFAS this year to further deal. You draft high again this year. It definitely could have been an ideal time to rebuild. But oh well, will see how this all turns out.

[Vinny01]

I think the x-factor in choosing to stay in the win now mode and acquiring veterans was Sutter being behind the bench. He was here for the last time and it sure felt like he had the team pretty dialed for the entire season.

I wonder if he had decided to move on and retire after the Gaudreau/Tkachuk situation if the Flsmes would have taken the rebuild approach knowing they could likely rebuild to have an emerging team when the eventual new building was ready.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Hackey

*blabbity-blah, blah blah blah!*

How is it that you are still talking about this?

Sent from my moto g stylus 5G (2022) using Tapatalk

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

How is it that you are still talking about this?

Sent from my moto g stylus 5G (2022) using Tapatalk

They are mad the Flames didn't choose the rebuild route. Necas > Huberdeau + Weegar

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

I think the x-factor in choosing to stay in the win now mode and acquiring veterans was Sutter being behind the bench. He was here for the last time and it sure felt like he had the team pretty dialed for the entire season.

I wonder if he had decided to move on and retire after the Gaudreau/Tkachuk situation if the Flsmes would have taken the rebuild approach knowing they could likely rebuild to have an emerging team when the eventual new building was ready.

If they chose the rebuild route after Tkachuk left I think they could have been a contender by the time the new building opened or at least very close. But maybe they also thought let's stay competitive now and bring in good revenue and once the new building opens that should draw fans by itself even if we aren't good and have to potentially start a rebuild then. Financially that makes some sense.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

How is it that you are still talking about this?

Sent from my moto g stylus 5G (2022) using Tapatalk

Youre a bit of a bully for a nerd lol.

What would you consider a successful season for Weegar this year?

[Jiri Hrdina]

Sutter would have obliterated Necas

[Hackey]

Probably. Luckily he's gone.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Hackey

If they chose the rebuild route after Tkachuk left I think they could have been a contender by the time the new building opened or at least very close. But maybe they also thought let's stay competitive now and bring in good revenue and once the new building opens that should draw fans by itself even if we aren't good and have to potentially start a rebuild then. Financially that makes some sense.

But technically the Florida deal was still the best deal for a rebuild trade. Someone estimated the return for taking the Florida trade and selling the pieces of it off and it was like 3 firsts and two strong prospects, which would be one of the bigger returns in years for a player.

So that isn't an argument for taking one of the other two crappier offers, it's an argument for taking Floridas deal and selling off rather than going in on the players acquired.

[PepsiFree]

It’s taken over a year and another 100+ post debate on the matter but I feel like we’ve almost gotten to the bottom of this whole Tkachuk trade situation. I think, to ensure we have time to process, we should take a break and do another 200+ posts mid-January or so. Then we’ll have set the stage to put it to bed 5, maybe 10 years from now (at which point it will become a running anecdote that is synonymous for “the state of the franchise” or something).

Thoughts? Opinions?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

It’s taken over a year and another 100+ post debate on the matter but I feel like we’ve almost gotten to the bottom of this whole Tkachuk trade situation. I think, to ensure we have time to process, we should take a break and do another 200+ posts mid-January or so. Then we’ll have set the stage to put it to bed 5, maybe 10 years from now (at which point it will become a running anecdote that is synonymous for “the state of the franchise” or something).

Thoughts? Opinions?

Each new iteration of the same old arguments just become more and more fascinating and compelling for me! I am pretty sure that someone is going to sway my opinion soon, if they can just make the same arguments another 15 or 20 times. Sure, the facts don't necessarily support those arguments, and sure, hindsight bias is splattered around like gravy on a Thanksgiving turkey, but none the less, I am RIVETED by these continually rehashed views!

[Bubba17]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

It’s taken over a year and another 100+ post debate on the matter but I feel like we’ve almost gotten to the bottom of this whole Tkachuk trade situation. I think, to ensure we have time to process, we should take a break and do another 200+ posts mid-January or so. Then we’ll have set the stage to put it to bed 5, maybe 10 years from now (at which point it will become a running anecdote that is synonymous for “the state of the franchise” or something).

Thoughts? Opinions?

People are still bitching about losing Paul Byron and the guy is retired!

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Hackey

If they chose the rebuild route after Tkachuk left I think they could have been a contender by the time the new building opened or at least very close. But maybe they also thought let's stay competitive now and bring in good revenue and once the new building opens that should draw fans by itself even if we aren't good and have to potentially start a rebuild then. Financially that makes some sense.

Based on what?

Rebuilds are a lot closer to 8 years than the 4 you’re hoping for, operative work being ‘hope’.

It’s taken Buffalo, Detroit, and Ottawa minimum 6-7 years just to get to the point of being a playoff contender, yet alone the cup contender you’re suggesting the Flames could be in 4-5 years.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by Bubba17

People are still bitching about losing Paul Byron and the guy is retired!

Just wait until Phillips scores his first preseason goal.

[transplant99]

Did not know this

https://twitter.com/user/status/1724480722080030910

[Kipper_3434]

Trade return wasn't the problem. Treliving panicked and handed out extensions like candy cause Gaudreau did him dirty. The return was great value that Tre ruined, what a horrible off season that was.