Canadian Federal Politics Thread v5

[ikaris]

Not really complicated. Just look at how Canada responded to the largest terrorist act against it in our history (air India bombing) to understand why we are here today.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

This part?

Yes, and all the rest of it.

You guys did read this, right? Like, you’re quoting it, and then making conclusions that have little to do with what is actually written and less to do with the current situation.

This is what was conveyed to Trudeau by Jean:

And so, the report says: “In a later briefing note to the Prime Minister on the Threat Reduction Measure, the national security and intelligence advisor stated, ‘In view of the significant political sensitivity, the Privy Council Office advised CSIS to be mindful of this context and take a limited approach to briefings and interviews.”

This briefing note for Trudeau, from Jean, added that “CSIS had developed a more ambitious [plan to disrupt Indian intelligence networks] but scaled down its intervention on advice from Privy Council Office and Public Safety.”

The report outlines that neither CSIS nor Global Affairs did what they said they were going to do, but at no point does it remotely suggest Trudeau was given information that he personally could have acted on and didn’t, outside of “this is happening, it is being handled.”

It also gives us no indication as to what was done since 2017 when that took place, but we know CSIS was at least doing more than they apparently were at the time (6 years ago), considering they warned Hardeep that his life was in danger before he was murdered.

Trying to make this murder Trudeau’s fault is so stupid. A Canadian gets murdered on Canadian soil by a foreign government and you guys are still desperate to find a way to make it some partisan game of “blame Trudeau.” Wild.

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Yes, and all the rest of it.

You guys did read this, right? Like, you’re quoting it, and then making conclusions that have little to do with what is actually written and less to do with the current situation.

This is what was conveyed to Trudeau by Jean:



The report outlines that neither CSIS nor Global Affairs did what they said they were going to do, but at no point does it remotely suggest Trudeau was given information that he personally could have acted on and didn’t, outside of “this is happening, it is being handled.”

It also gives us no indication as to what was done since 2017 when that took place, but we know CSIS was at least doing more than they apparently were at the time (6 years ago), considering they warned Hardeep that his life was in danger before he was murdered.

Trying to make this murder Trudeau’s fault is so stupid. A Canadian gets murdered on Canadian soil by a foreign government and you guys are still desperate to find a way to make it some partisan game of “blame Trudeau.” Wild.

But later, for political reasons, Global Affairs was mute on CSIS’s concerns in Vancouver.

“For its part, Global Affairs did not raise Mr. Singh’s activities to senior Indian diplomats,” the NSICOP document says, “because it had concerns that preparations for the Prime Minister’s trip to India were reaching a critical point and may be negatively affected by such an intervention.”

In the aftermath, the alleged Indian intelligence networks interfering in Vancouver’s diaspora were untouched.

Citing an October 2017 internal CSIS briefing note, NSICOP’s report says “CSIS noted that Mr. Singh ‘continues his [foreign interference] activities unabated.’”

Hopefully this helps. Trudeau knew about the interference, but didn’t want it to affect his trip to India.

So the timeline is that he knew about interference way back in 2017 and did nothing. As it goes on to say, “Mr. Sign continues his foreign interference unabated”

Sorry, but he has to take some blame for this, as he should.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Yes, and all the rest of it.

You guys did read this, right? Like, you’re quoting it, and then making conclusions that have little to do with what is actually written and less to do with the current situation.

This is what was conveyed to Trudeau by Jean:



The report outlines that neither CSIS nor Global Affairs did what they said they were going to do, but at no point does it remotely suggest Trudeau was given information that he personally could have acted on and didn’t, outside of “this is happening, it is being handled.”

It also gives us no indication as to what was done since 2017 when that took place, but we know CSIS was at least doing more than they apparently were at the time (6 years ago), considering they warned Hardeep that his life was in danger before he was murdered.

Trying to make this murder Trudeau’s fault is so stupid. A Canadian gets murdered on Canadian soil by a foreign government and you guys are still desperate to find a way to make it some partisan game of “blame Trudeau.” Wild.

You seem to be missing the point. CSIS did not do what they outlined because the government told them to stand down. They identified a threat and developed a plan to mitigate and counter that threat. They briefed top government officials on their work and measures that should be implemented but Trudeau's government dismissed the threat. This all occurred well before the eventual murder and if the government/national security had acted more appropriately that outcome may not have occurred.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

Hopefully this helps. Trudeau knew about the interference, but didn’t want it to affect his trip to India.

So the timeline is that he knew about interference way back in 2017 and did nothing. As it goes on to say, “Mr. Sign continues his foreign interference unabated”

Sorry, but he has to take some blame for this, as he should.

No. Global Affairs, which briefed Trudeau and informed him CSIS was taking a softer approach on their recommendation, did not want it to affect his trip to India from the perspective of global relations, so they did not inform officials in the Indian government of CSIS’ concerns on that trip.

Why make something up that isn’t in the article? It says it, you quoted it.

At no point does the article mention Trudeau not wanting it to impact his trip to India and at no point does it even suggest Trudeau wanted or would even have reason to assume “nothing” was being done, the article says the opposite: that he was briefed on the fact that things were, in fact, being done. And then things weren’t done.

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

You seem to be missing the point. CSIS did not do what they outlined because the government told them to stand down. They identified a threat and developed a plan to mitigate and counter that threat. They briefed top government officials on their work and measures that should be implemented but Trudeau's government dismissed the threat. This all occurred well before the eventual murder and if the government/national security had acted more appropriately that outcome may not have occurred.

No, I’m not missing the point, you guys aren’t reading the article. Two different government agencies wanted an alternate approach due to the impact the original approach would have on how they do their jobs (including Global Affairs ability to manage diplomatic relations).

Nobody dismissed the threat, nobody handcuffed CSIS into doing nothing. The government agencies CSIS consulted with wanted an approach that wouldn’t compromise their work, and instead CSIS did nothing.

But seriously, do you honestly think that was just… it? Nothing happened between 2017 and now? Nothing was done, CSIS continued to do nothing (despite having enough knowledge to accurately warn Hardeep of his death)?

[JeanLucPicard]

It does not matter if a person is Canadian citizen or not, belongs to whatever group/ideology/activism, or categorized as a criminal by another country

An assassination of a individual on Canadian soil by members associated with the government of India, ie. sanctioned by them, is a violation of sovereignty. There is no "buts" about this.

A lot of people are asking "oh but was he a citizen? did he become that from loopholes? was he involved in illegal activities or designated as a criminal by India?" and so on. That is not the issue at all

I am trusting that any Canadian PM wouldn't just come out and directly blame the government openly if CSIS didn't have concrete evidence.

What is unfortunate is that Canadian is not a military power, because if it was, countries like India who openly prosecute so many people within their country, would think twice before sending agents to Canada and violate their sovereignty.

[Yoho]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1704459355179958308

https://twitter.com/user/status/1704458274433548544

[Izzle]

1. Beef with Canada
2. Indian students avoid Canada
3. $#^*/@
4. Housing crisis solved!

[Yoho]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1704268169983283585

[Fuzz]

#### off Cory. You aren't entitled to any classified information, you stupid muppet.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

No, I’m not missing the point, you guys aren’t reading the article. Two different government agencies wanted an alternate approach due to the impact the original approach would have on how they do their jobs (including Global Affairs ability to manage diplomatic relations).

Nobody dismissed the threat, nobody handcuffed CSIS into doing nothing. The government agencies CSIS consulted with wanted an approach that wouldn’t compromise their work, and instead CSIS did nothing.

But seriously, do you honestly think that was just… it? Nothing happened between 2017 and now? Nothing was done, CSIS continued to do nothing (despite having enough knowledge to accurately warn Hardeep of his death)?

That is clearly not what the article says:

CSIS planned a major intervention in 2017 to shut down rapidly growing Indian intelligence networks in Vancouver that were monitoring and targeting the Sikh community, according to a confidential Canadian foreign interference review.

But Ottawa blocked CSIS’s operation due to “political sensitivity” and fears it would impact Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s upcoming trip to India, the top secret June 2019 report says. And so, the Indian diplomat in Vancouver targeted by CSIS continued to run his networks “unabated.”

Unabated meaning without any reduction in intensity or strength.

In the meeting, Jean raised questions about whether Trudeau administration plans to change the CSIS Act, would impact CSIS’s use of threat reduction operations, the NSICOP report says.

However, the report explains, before launching threat reduction operations, CSIS must consult with other departments including Global Affairs Canada and Public Safety Canada. And these departments often discounted CSIS warnings, while Global Affairs tended to value trade and political deals with China and India, over national security measures.

It sure sounds like it is being claimed that these departments have a history of dismissing threats for various reasons not related to security and intelligence.

As a result of other departments telling CSIS to stand down, NSICOP says that CSIS “met with a smaller number of individuals from Mr. Jain’s network, but did not, as originally planned, engage elected officials or journalists.”

Perhaps more shockingly — in light of CSIS’s original plans to disrupt the growing Indian intelligence networks targeting Sikh communities in Vancouver — after these meetings in Ottawa, CSIS did nothing to target the Vancouver diplomat, “Mr. Singh or his network.”

In addition, in CSIS’s original threat reduction plan, Global Affairs Canada “had committed to inform senior Indian diplomats in Canada of Mr. Singh’s activities,” NSICOP says.

But later, for political reasons, Global Affairs was mute on CSIS’s concerns in Vancouver.

“For its part, Global Affairs did not raise Mr. Singh’s activities to senior Indian diplomats,” the NSICOP document says, “because it had concerns that preparations for the Prime Minister’s trip to India were reaching a critical point and may be negatively affected by such an intervention.”

CSIS did nothing after these meetings. They probably became heavily involved again after the murder though.

[activeStick]

India has issued a travel advisory for Canada, asking Indian citizens and students to exercise "utmost caution" when traveling to Canada...

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by activeStick

India has issued a travel advisory for Canada, asking Indian citizens and students to exercise "utmost caution" when traveling to Canada...

What, in case the Indian government decides to execute* them here?






*allegedly.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

#### off Cory. You aren't entitled to any classified information, you stupid muppet.

Who can take what that ####wit says seriously

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

No. Global Affairs, which briefed Trudeau and informed him CSIS was taking a softer approach on their recommendation, did not want it to affect his trip to India from the perspective of global relations, so they did not inform officials in the Indian government of CSIS’ concerns on that trip.

Why make something up that isn’t in the article? It says it, you quoted it.

At no point does the article mention Trudeau not wanting it to impact his trip to India and at no point does it even suggest Trudeau wanted or would even have reason to assume “nothing” was being done, the article says the opposite: that he was briefed on the fact that things were, in fact, being done. And then things weren’t done.



No, I’m not missing the point, you guys aren’t reading the article. Two different government agencies wanted an alternate approach due to the impact the original approach would have on how they do their jobs (including Global Affairs ability to manage diplomatic relations).

Nobody dismissed the threat, nobody handcuffed CSIS into doing nothing. The government agencies CSIS consulted with wanted an approach that wouldn’t compromise their work, and instead CSIS did nothing.

But seriously, do you honestly think that was just… it? Nothing happened between 2017 and now? Nothing was done, CSIS continued to do nothing (despite having enough knowledge to accurately warn Hardeep of his death)?

I have no doubt that CSIS have been doing their job. Never said they aren’t.

If you seriously don’t think that Trudeau is to blame for the lack of action against foreign interference, then I don’t know what to say.

CSIS reports directly to Minister of Public Safety. The Minister of Public Safety reports directly to Trudeau He has know about this for years and years.

Chrystia Freeland was a Minister of Global Affairs in 2017. This department reports directly to Trudeau.

These are not some obscure departments that never contact the Prime Minister.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by activeStick

India has issued a travel advisory for Canada, asking Indian citizens and students to exercise "utmost caution" when traveling to Canada...

Which I find rather ironic.

"Hey India, uh...yeah, your students are only going to be in danger if you decide to put them in danger..."

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

That is clearly not what the article says

That’s clearly not what the one summary line from the journalist says. You’ve read the rest, so you’re capable of understanding what it actually says.

In view of the significant political sensitivity, the Privy Council Office advised CSIS to be mindful of this context and take a limited approach to briefings and interviews.”

This briefing note for Trudeau, from Jean, added that “CSIS had developed a more ambitious [plan to disrupt Indian intelligence networks] but scaled down its intervention on advice from Privy Council Office and Public Safety.”

Blocked? Halted? Yeah, nah.

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

Unabated meaning without any reduction in intensity or strength.

According to a briefing note when CSIS noted that from October 2017, in a 2019 report. It’s 2023 my guy.

“Citing an October 2017 internal CSIS briefing note, NSICOP’s report says “CSIS noted that Mr. Singh ‘continues his [foreign interference] activities unabated.’”

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

It sure sounds like it is being claimed that these departments have a history of dismissing threats for various reasons not related to security and intelligence.

Is this the first time, so you think, that different government departments have to consider the needs of other government departments when taking action? Of course every department is trying to protect their own interests, it’s their job. Unless one department has the ability to do whatever they want whenever they want and every other department has to respond, how do you think that’s going to go?

It wouldn’t be a stretch to say Daniel Jean, who served as Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs under Harper, made the wrong call in prioritizing foreign affairs over security. But trying to tie that to Trudeau inaction is stupid and unfounded and I feel like any honest read of the artist makes that completely clear.

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

CSIS did nothing after these meetings. They probably became heavily involved again after the murder though.

Again, sorry, you think they’ve done nothing since 2017 because of a report four years ago, and became “heavily involved” after the murder, despite being able to instruct Hardeep his life was in danger beforehand?

Come on.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

I have no doubt that CSIS have been doing their job. Never said they aren’t.

If you seriously don’t think that Trudeau is to blame for the lack of action against foreign interference, then I don’t know what to say.

CSIS reports directly to Minister of Public Safety. The Minister of Public Safety reports directly to Trudeau He has know about this for years and years.

Chrystia Freeland was a Minister of Global Affairs in 2017. This department reports directly to Trudeau.

These are not some obscure departments that never contact the Prime Minister.

They do report to Trudeau, and his advisor did his job by advising him what was going on and what the departments were doing about it.

Read the article, at no point does it suggest Trudeau did not act when he should have or that he instructed any other agency not to act.

I understand that Comservatives are desperate to blame this on Trudeau instead of actually caring that it happened or being concerned with India, but at a certain point it gets old.

“Trudeau said too much!”
“Trudeau didn’t do enough!”
“CSIS did nothing because of Trudeau!”
“Trudeau is hindering the ongoing work of CSIS!!!”

Just put the bias aside and try, for a second, to see if you can intake the situation without desperately trying to find a reason why this supports your political bias.

[Firebot]

Trudeau went public with India allegations because it was going to come out in the media

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

They do report to Trudeau, and his advisor did his job by advising him what was going on and what the departments were doing about it.

Read the article, at no point does it suggest Trudeau did not act when he should have or that he instructed any other agency not to act.

Just put the bias aside and try, for a second, to see if you can intake the situation without desperately trying to find a reason why this supports your political bias.

In addition, in CSIS’s original threat reduction plan, Global Affairs Canada “had committed to inform senior Indian diplomats in Canada of Mr. Singh’s activities,” NSICOP says.

But later, for political reasons, Global Affairs was mute on CSIS’s concerns in Vancouver.

“For its part, Global Affairs did not raise Mr. Singh’s activities to senior Indian diplomats,” the NSICOP document says, “because it had concerns that preparations for the Prime Minister’s trip to India were reaching a critical point and may be negatively affected by such an intervention.”

Global Affairs “had committed to inform senior Indian diplomats in Canada of Mr. Singh’s activities,” but decided not to intervene “because it had concerns that preparations for the Prime Minister’s trip to India were reaching a critical point and may be negatively affected by such an intervention.”

Global Affairs (Chrystia Freeland) committed to CSIS threat reduction plan, then didn’t do what they committed to because they didn’t want it to disrupt Trudeau’s trip to India.

Again, Global Affairs reports directly to Trudeau.