Christofascists seeking to seize our country

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Correct. Where did I say they were?

Where did I say you said they were? I was making a statement to provide context to my response.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

As I said, it does not require changing sex characteristics, but that does fall within gender transition. It is not an entirely different thing as you describe it.

Again, statement made in the context of transitioning sex has physical changes that transitioning gender roles on its own does not.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

You should research gender transition if you're going to keep using the term.

You should read and understand people's posts if you're going to keep replying to them.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

OK, but you're only half getting it here. If gender ceases to exist and therefore there would be no gender norms or gender buckets or no difference between genders and the only definable difference would be in sex, why would anyone "transition sex"?

If someone feels like they were born in the wrong body, they would transition their sex, which certainly is not a new concept.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

It's absurd to think that trying to blow the concept of "two genders" out of the water is actually reinforcing gender. Come on.

Good thing no one is suggesting that, it's always nice to see that everyone is in agreement for a change.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Also, I think you were asking on a higher level why these labels? That's also just for humans in general. People organize based on labels, it's what we naturally do. Nationality, ethnicity, language speakers, favorite sports and favorite sports teams, level of fitness, level of skill, professions, and yes, even gender-based identities.

Exactly, and I don't love this. Race labels get crazy complicated for mixed race kids.

It's not uncommon that a biracial kid feels a lack of belonging to either group, or worse, is ostracized from both groups, because they are viewed as an outsider.

You're all welcome to have your own opinions about this, but today it still feels like there is this massive distinction between people being "normal" or "cis" vs. LGBT...+. I think that sucks. The cis people exist on the same gender spectrum, it's not some separate thing, the spectrum is just far more broad than many used to realize. Yet we still see an "us" vs. "them" mentality around the edges of it.

Not saying I have a better solution, or that having the support of similar self identifying people is a bad thing. I just hope that kids coming up in a world that is in a better place with this stuff than when I was a kid move past labeling, prejudging, or going through any form of ceremony regarding their and their peers personal gender journeys.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Bonded

Your nephew doesn't need to ascribe to any of the letters or educate anyone about gender if he doesn't want to. The responsibility lies with the extended family members who are uncomfortable with him wearing nail polish to stop being dicks and hopefully educate themselves and stop commenting on his choices that do no affect them in any way.

Correct, but if the world around him views him through a lens of buckets for him to be put in, there is inevitable pressure for him to place himself in one at some point. Just like people ask "what race are you?" or "where are you from?" the same thing happens with genders now, and the more we emphasize the labels, the more it seems likely this will happen.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

Correct, but if the world around him views him through a lens of buckets for him to be put in, there is inevitable pressure for him to place himself in one at some point. Just like people ask "what race are you?" or "where are you from?" the same thing happens with genders now, and the more we emphasize the labels, the more it seems likely this will happen.

Nobody asks what ethnicity folks are but boomers. IDGAF as long as your not a ####.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

Nobody asks what ethnicity folks are but boomers. IDGAF as long as your not a ####.

Exactly, and isn't that a good thing, and shouldn't we avoid that path with genders? Are we going down that path at all, or am I misreading things? That's all I'm saying/asking.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

You're all welcome to have your own opinions about this, but today it still feels like there is this massive distinction between people being "normal" or "cis" vs. LGBT...+. I think that sucks. The cis people exist on the same gender spectrum, it's not some separate thing, the spectrum is just far more broad than many used to realize. Yet we still see an "us" vs. "them" mentality around the edges of it.

Pretty sure the use of the word "normal" is Republican and right-wing dogma. At least progressives are capable of using the word "straight" for the most part.

Note that we continue to see "us vs. them" in many lenses of life, and that's how humans organize. Yes it sucks, but that's what happens (at least until the NHI shows up and we all unite and identify as one common species where nuanced differences don't matter, that's the hope!)

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

Where did I say you said they were? I was making a statement to provide context to my response.

Again, statement made in the context of transitioning sex has physical changes that transitioning gender roles on its own does not.

What is "transitioning gender roles on its own"? What does that even entail to you, in a way that excludes transitioning sex? What does gender transition even mean to you?

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

You should read and understand people's posts if you're going to keep replying to them.

You should learn to post better if you want your posts to be understood.

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

If someone feels like they were born in the wrong body, they would transition their sex, which certainly is not a new concept.

Why would they feel they were born in the wrong body? What would make that body feel "wrong"? Think about this a little more.

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

Good thing no one is suggesting that, it's always nice to see that everyone is in agreement for a change.

Maybe you just need to work on reading and understanding people's posts if you're going to reference them, because that's exactly what Cliff said.

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Gender affirmation reinforces gender norms.

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

So reifying those preferences by making gender a core identity is a step back. It imposes arbitrary categories on a spectrum of behaviour. It reinforces the association of dolls and dresses with girls, and guns and trucks with boys.

We're talking about gender identity and expression beyond "girls and boys" and into things like non-binary, genderqueer, transgender, etc. and Cliff's position is that any gender identity or any affirmation reinforces norms so we best do without any of it.

In reality, these "labels" and these gender identities beyond "girl" or "boy" that we're "reifying" are moving toward exactly that. So pretending they're part of the problem is absurd, and pretending that nobody is claiming they are is equally so.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

Correct, but if the world around him views him through a lens of buckets for him to be put in, there is inevitable pressure for him to place himself in one at some point. Just like people ask "what race are you?" or "where are you from?" the same thing happens with genders now, and the more we emphasize the labels, the more it seems likely this will happen.

Humans are naturally social creatures though. We like labels, groups, and integrating with other people who share similar beliefs and values. It is how communities, religions, and civilizations get built. You can't take the I don't see colour, I only see a person and try to build it into a solution. Color-blindness doesn't work for race, it won't work for LGTBQ issues either.

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

You're all welcome to have your own opinions about this, but today it still feels like there is this massive distinction between people being "normal" or "cis" vs. LGBT...+. I think that sucks. The cis people exist on the same gender spectrum, it's not some separate thing, the spectrum is just far more broad than many used to realize. Yet we still see an "us" vs. "them" mentality around the edges of it.

The fact that you frame it as 'normal' versus 'non-normal' show that isn't just around the edges on both sides. There would be a lot of very happy heteronormative people if the LGTBQ movement and associated identities disappeared over night. It isn't an equal fight where two fringes are fighting it out.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

Exactly, and isn't that a good thing, and shouldn't we avoid that path with genders? Are we going down that path at all, or am I misreading things? That's all I'm saying/asking.

I think that you have a point, but the cat is out the bag now. Personally I use my favorited gender neutral pronoun, comrade.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

Correct, but if the world around him views him through a lens of buckets for him to be put in, there is inevitable pressure for him to place himself in one at some point. Just like people ask "what race are you?" or "where are you from?" the same thing happens with genders now, and the more we emphasize the labels, the more it seems likely this will happen.

In the space between two buckets and no buckets, would you rather him choose between the two? or between 100?

Like everyone else, as you grow up you learn that it doesn't really matter how "the world" views you, you just do you. And, as family, the best thing you can do is support him so that he can pick and choose identities that feel right as they feel right, and move on when they don't.

The "buckets" are only restrictive to people who make them restrictive. And can be as positive or negative as an individual wants them to be.

I've moved between "buckets" or "labels" in life, informing people when it was important, skipping it when it wasn't, and finding community when I needed it. I'm sure you have to in your own way. Who were you in high school? Do you identify just the same today?

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

What is "transitioning gender roles on its own"? What does that even entail to you, in a way that excludes transitioning sex? What does gender transition even mean to you?

The idea that one can present themselves as a man or a woman in terms of outward appearance etc. without physical or hormonal treatments? Again, this is not anything novel.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Why would they feel they were born in the wrong body? What would make that body feel "wrong"? Think about this a little more.

There are biological and mental factors outside of gender dysphoria that could influence a person's decision to do so. Are they the most common reasons? Probably not, but that doesn't mean they aren't there. Try not being so condescending for a change.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Maybe you just need to work on reading and understanding people's posts if you're going to reference them, because that's exactly what Cliff said.

We're talking about gender identity and expression beyond "girls and boys" and into things like non-binary, genderqueer, transgender, etc. and Cliff's position is that any gender identity or any affirmation reinforces norms so we best do without any of it.

In reality, these "labels" and these gender identities beyond "girl" or "boy" that we're "reifying" are moving toward exactly that. So pretending they're part of the problem is absurd, and pretending that nobody is claiming they are is equally so.

Again, it appears Cliff is specifically talking about affirming gender based on the gender binary when we understand gender to exist on a spectrum. If you want to argue about that more, you can take it up with him, my whole intention was to try and parse what he posted in the first place.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

I actually mis-read your post and missed the second "doesn't" (a double negative, tsk tsk) so I read it as 'That doesn't mean school needs to teach these things to children to prepare them for the work force.' My bad.

That's kind of what I got out of what Cliff was saying too; the very concept of 'transitioning' genders is itself a reinforcement of gender norms, that if we actually stopped grouping behaviors into gender-specific buckets, then transitioning from a man to a woman wouldn't / shouldn't result in any material changes because you'd just do what you wanted to anyway. A boy can play with dolls and wear make-up, a girl can play with Tonka trucks, and vice versa, because those are no longer behaviors or interests ascribed to a specific gender. There would be nothing to transition to because your gender wouldn't define your behaviors, interests, how masculine or feminine your behavior/personality is, etc. Instead of discarding gender as an outdated concept that forces people into these buckets based on arbitrary assignment of these behavior and personality traits, it's reinforcing it. (Transitioning sex is a whole different thing.)

Did I get that right, Cliff?

Yep.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Pretty sure the use of the word "normal" is Republican and right-wing dogma. At least progressives are capable of using the word "straight" for the most part.

Originally Posted by Bonded

The fact that you frame it as 'normal' versus 'non-normal' show that isn't just around the edges on both sides.

Please note that I threw quotes around "normal" for a reason. It's a harmful term for being straight/cis, but this construct definitely exists in society today (which is why we still need things like pride events, so we can continue to work to normalize the many other ways people can be).

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

In the space between two buckets and no buckets, would you rather him choose between the two? or between 100?

That's a fair point, and probably I'm falling into a bit of a "don't let perfect be the enemy of good" trap on this one.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

Exactly, and I don't love this. Race labels get crazy complicated for mixed race kids.

It's not uncommon that a biracial kid feels a lack of belonging to either group, or worse, is ostracized from both groups, because they are viewed as an outsider.

Maybe we should revive terms like quadroon and octoroon, so mixed race people of various configurations have distinct identities.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

The idea that one can present themselves as a man or a woman in terms of outward appearance etc. without physical or hormonal treatments? Again, this is not anything novel.

OK, so what I'm trying to explain is how that is a part of gender transition, just like medical intervention is, and that they are not separate or completely removed from each other. Like, "gender transition," when you use that term, includes both non-permanent and permanent changes. Yes, someone can pick and choose what elements of gender transition are needed, and don't need to pursue medical treatment, but when you use the term "gender transition" or "transitioning gender," even though gender and sex are different, you are referring to a category of things that includes medical treatments.

Changing your sex characteristics through hormones or surgery is gender transition, just as changing your name, pronouns, or dress is.

Suggesting that they are separate things, or that gender transition excludes anything medical or permanent, would be fairly novel.

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

There are biological and mental factors outside of gender dysphoria that could influence a person's decision to do so. Are they the most common reasons? Probably not, but that doesn't mean they aren't there. Try not being so condescending for a change.

Sorry for being condescending, I was just following your lead and, to be honest, was really bothered by Matata's post, so my back is up.

What are the biological and mental factors outside of gender dysphoria that lead people to "transition sex" and how prevalent are they? Genuinely curious.

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

Again, it appears Cliff is specifically talking about affirming gender based on the gender binary when we understand gender to exist on a spectrum. If you want to argue about that more, you can take it up with him, my whole intention was to try and parse what he posted in the first place.

Yeah, that's why I mentioned Cliff specifically when I said it, and I very much doubt his comment is that innocent considering what he replied to and the conversation being had when he made the comments, but you're free to interpret it however you want. Just don't tell me nobody said it when I made it clear who I was referencing from the beginning.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Maybe we should revive terms like quadroon and octoroon, so mixed race people of various configurations have distinct identities.

Lol might as well bring back slurs for gay people as well. Dumb.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Wait, so the prevailing wisdom is now that gender roles are fully socially constructed, and have nothing whatsoever to do with evolutionary biology, despite the clear differences in, say, various hormone levels between male and female human beings? Or am I misunderstanding something here?

EDIT: You know what, never mind, this is a good time for the "Homer receding into the hedge" meme. Or the "Grandpa walks into the brothel and sees Bart and walks out" meme. Some sort of Simpsons meme applies here.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Wait, so the prevailing wisdom is now that gender roles are fully socially constructed, and have nothing whatsoever to do with evolutionary biology, despite the clear differences in, say, various hormone levels between male and female human beings? Or am I misunderstanding something here?

EDIT: You know what, never mind, this is a good time for the "Homer receding into the hedge" meme. Or the "Grandpa walks into the brothel and sees Bart and walks out" meme. Some sort of Simpsons meme applies here.

I'll go with Sideshow Bob stepping on rakes meme.

[Mathgod]

Is this thread still about christofascists?

Ignoring such fascist movements is how you end up with one as the head of state of your country (ie: DJT, Bolsonaro, etc)

Originally Posted by Ducay

I mean the extreme left is doing the same thing to push their narrative, no real surprise the right has seen the success (Soros, etc) and wants to emulate it. Seeing it as a threat to free society depends on your views. I'd argue the right sees the "crazy left" as just as much of a threat to society as the left does this.

To suggest that there is an equivalent far left threat to free society, is utterly absurd. To suggest that Soros is either far left or a threat to free society, is utterly absurd. There's zero evidence of that being the case, just hysteria by right wing talking heads.

In reality, the only true threat to society is the tribalization of politics & its creep into daily life. Hyperbolic posts like this demonizing certain political views only exacerbates the political divide & warmongering that is hurting society.

You must have never heard Trump rant during one of his rallies then. Demonizing his political opponents with wild, baseless accusations is pretty much his bread & butter.

There's an important distinction to be made here though. There is nothing wrong with demonizing political views/ideologies that have demonstrably had a destructive impact on the lives of many people throughout history. There is, however, plenty wrong with demonizing people themselves for the views they hold. While it's ok to criticize someone for the bad ideas they cling to, it's not ok to demonize/dehumanize the people themselves, especially when doing so involves accusing them of things that aren't actually true.

[Fuzz]

A local school board trustee compared the 2SLGBTQIA+ community to Nazis in a social media post this week.


Red Deer Catholic Regional Schools board of trustees member Monique LaGrange recently published a story on her personal Instagram page featuring two pictures – one of children waving Nazi flags and another of children waving Pride flags – with the caption, “Brainwashing is brainwashing.”


“It’s disappointing to see Ms. LaGrange resort to such lazy tactics to appeal to conservative-minded folks like her,” chairperson of the board for the Red Deer Queer Community Association Alex Pugatschew said in a statement on Friday.

https://www.reddeeradvocate.com/news...nity-to-nazis/


Here's a Christofacist that has already infiltrated a school board, and dog whistled to her supporters. Cool, cool. I'm sure she'll get reelected easily, when she should be forced to resign in shame. But no, because too many people silently support her and her ideals. What an embarrassment to our province.