Christofascists seeking to seize our country

[Maritime Q-Scout]

That policy is bonkers.

When I was in junior high two of my best friends were Deer and Mavs.

Like, unless you were super close to either of those guys, you didn't know their real name.

Teachers referred to them as Deer and Mavs.

If that policy was implemented during my schooling days there'd be a lot of "Who the F*** is Ryan?" floating around.

[Yeah_Baby]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Given the level of tomfoolery I got into as a kid, I wouldn’t put it past one of my kids to request being called Nighthawk or Poopyhead knowing the school couldn’t tell me, legally.

I knew a guy who was tired of being Matt (Last Initial) so started spelling his name Matqt. Who the fata cares.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

These policies are so hard to support or not. To me, every single child and every situation can be different from the next. I personally would want to know if my child wants to use a different pronoun. But I really don’t think it would be a problem for my personal situation as I spend lots of time with my kids and have lots of conversations. So I would know what my kids want by talking to them, not from hearing it from school.

Some parents would want to know so they could support their children and some would want to know so they could stop their children.

Some children might know more about themselves at 10 years old than the next child knows about themselves at 14.

Really really tough to group everything together when every situation can be so different.

Youve identified a common problem in policy making. Often times, solutions can't be posited to every situation and legislated away. Thats why the general principle is to reduce harms to groups through policy creation. It's from that lense that I would attack this policy:

Harm to children concealing an identity change from an angry parent (or similar) if it were to be divulged >
- Harm to the parent for not being close enough with their child to know that they wish to be known different,
- Harm to the parent that their child does not copy their ideology (religious or otherwise)

[2Stonedbirds]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Surely any official records would use the student's legal name, not the chosen name they wish their teachers and classmates to use when addressing them.

This isn't a hard problem. Even when I was a student 30+ years ago, I had several classmates who, for a variety of different reasons, asked that they be addressed by a name other than their legal first name. Usually it was easily resolved on the first day of class:

Teacher, taking attendance while reading the list of students assigned to their class: "John Smith?"
John: "Yeah, that's me. My full name is actually John Smith Jr., but nobody uses that name. Everyone in my family calls me 'JR' so they don't confuse me with my father. That's the name I prefer to use."
Teacher: "Okay, thanks JR."

Had a similar, but different story from HS.

In shop class many moons ago, we had a substitute who closely resembled Santa. When a freind of mine showed up late with chicken burgers from the cafeteria, he yelled at him "why are you late for my class?!" To which buddy replied:

"Well if it isn't Kris ####ing Kringle."

Using improper pronouns even back then wasn't the popular choice.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by Itse

It would probably be extremely hard to find a single case anywhere in the world where a child who wants to hide their trans identity from their parents would ever want anyone to use a differently gendered name in as public a place as a school.

It's actually the opposite. There are lots. Millions, globally.

I personally taught three 7th graders over the last 7 years who were in this situation, and another four who were open with their parents with their pronoun/name change requests. Granted, my school was very LGBTQA+ friendly and had a clear policy, well articulated to students, that students could request the school not inform parents.

Giving kids the opportunity to experiment with their gender-identity in whichever way and space feels comfortable to them is so, so, so important. I am certain that many of the parents the kids didn't want to tell would absolutely be accepting of their child's choice, but the kid just didn't want to tell them and I am enormously supportive of giving kids that option.

Laws that require informing parents are going to have exactly the opposite effect that the Christofacists - and I use the word deliberately - intend. MORE teenagers are going to seek medical solutions to perceived gender dysphoria.

Just like so many different phases that kids go through while they're growing up, experiments with gender identity are usually just that: a phase. Granted, there are some people who experience gender dysphoria to the point that medical intervention is what is best for that person. If we make it so that only "genuine" dysphoria is the acceptable way to experiment with gender identity, then you are going to drive people into making medical decisions with life-long consequences who otherwise would not have.

Try to think back to how important your identity was to you as a teenager. How much the music you and your friends listened to mattered. How important it was that people know you disliked something that was popular, a tv show or a genre of music.

Now imagine that the identity you've put on involves your gender and you have people you care about: your parents, teachers, counsellors, asking you if this is really, really who you are. Of course kids are going to say yes, because in that moment it is who they really, really are.

On the other hand, if the school is a space where a kid can show up and be Julie for six months and then Raymond for the rest of the year, and then maybe go back to Julie for a bit because they kinda liked some of the things that came along with it, and they can just do this on their own, without needing to have long conversations with adults about it (which - to a kid - is exactly the same thing as "being in trouble" no matter how you handle the conversation), then we give kids the chance to explore and figure out who they are without involving lasting medical treatments.

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by Maritime Q-Scout

That policy is bonkers.

When I was in junior high two of my best friends were Deer and Mavs.

Like, unless you were super close to either of those guys, you didn't know their real name.

Teachers referred to them as Deer and Mavs.

If that policy was implemented during my schooling days there'd be a lot of "Who the F*** is Ryan?" floating around.

And how long until kids start messing around?

Teacher: Your son has requested his official preferred name to be "Onafone".
Mr Johnson: Little James requested you call him Onafone? ... oh.

[The Big Chill]

Kids messing around has a far smaller consequence then forcing someone to hide their true identity.

[110%]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

let me ask you this?
If a kid pulls you aside at work and says don't tell my parents about my gender because I fear harm, and you know these parents are unhinged because they spam you with threats about the woke agenda through out the school year, do you tell those parents?

I wouldn’t rat on anyone, personally.Those unhinged parents, being a small percentage, are the ones to administratively wage war on schools and teachers. Would the non-disclosure rules about these issues extend to healthcare? Gender-affirming care surgery for a 10 year old?

Someone else suggested just use the legal name is all school records. Ok, but then could the child sue the school for discrimination based on these grounds?

It’s not nearly as easy to solve this as people are suggesting.

[driveway]

It's not simple, but fortunately some very smart people, who care a great deal, have done the work to prepare policy ideas.

Here is the GLSEN Model Local Education Agency Policy on Transgender and Non-Binary students.

I was fortunate enough to work at a school that just took this policy in its entirety. I would make the same recomendation to any school or district I worked for.

Here is the specific language around medical records:

When requested by the student and their parent/guardian, a transgender or nonbinary student’s name should be changed in the Student Database/Information System to reflect their affirmed gender.

If a student has not disclosed their gender identity to a parent/guardian, and as a result the database/information system information cannot be changed, their affirmed name shall be noted as a “preferred name” in the system͘ This affirmed name should be used by staff and peers, according to the transgender or nonbinary student’s wishes.

Attendance rosters and ID cards should reflect the student’s wishes with regards to name and/or gender marker/pronouns, regardless of the database/information system. The legal name should be used only where specifically required. Districts and schools should determine which uses require the legal name, including whether it is required for specific testing or reporting purposes.

Students may, upon request, have a diploma and course records reissued with a name change after graduation.

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by driveway

It's actually the opposite. There are lots. Millions, globally.

I personally taught three 7th graders over the last 7 years who were in this situation, and another four who were open with their parents with their pronoun/name change requests. Granted, my school was very LGBTQA+ friendly and had a clear policy, well articulated to students, that students could request the school not inform parents.

Giving kids the opportunity to experiment with their gender-identity in whichever way and space feels comfortable to them is so, so, so important. I am certain that many of the parents the kids didn't want to tell would absolutely be accepting of their child's choice, but the kid just didn't want to tell them and I am enormously supportive of giving kids that option.

Laws that require informing parents are going to have exactly the opposite effect that the Christofacists - and I use the word deliberately - intend. MORE teenagers are going to seek medical solutions to perceived gender dysphoria.

Just like so many different phases that kids go through while they're growing up, experiments with gender identity are usually just that: a phase. Granted, there are some people who experience gender dysphoria to the point that medical intervention is what is best for that person. If we make it so that only "genuine" dysphoria is the acceptable way to experiment with gender identity, then you are going to drive people into making medical decisions with life-long consequences who otherwise would not have.

Try to think back to how important your identity was to you as a teenager. How much the music you and your friends listened to mattered. How important it was that people know you disliked something that was popular, a tv show or a genre of music.

Now imagine that the identity you've put on involves your gender and you have people you care about: your parents, teachers, counsellors, asking you if this is really, really who you are. Of course kids are going to say yes, because in that moment it is who they really, really are.

On the other hand, if the school is a space where a kid can show up and be Julie for six months and then Raymond for the rest of the year, and then maybe go back to Julie for a bit because they kinda liked some of the things that came along with it, and they can just do this on their own, without needing to have long conversations with adults about it (which - to a kid - is exactly the same thing as "being in trouble" no matter how you handle the conversation), then we give kids the chance to explore and figure out who they are without involving lasting medical treatments.

I was trying to decide if I should reply seriously to this thread. I don't want to defend an opinion, but I also don't want to seem like I'm carelessly doing a drive by either.

But IMO, if gender is a social construct, the I believe the child would be able to understand more of who they are in a larger social circle such as a school than a smaller one such as a family.

I don't agree with teaching the details of the other genders beyond the awareness that there exists other ones beyond the two primary ones in elementary school. I think it would confuse and overwhelm kids.

But teaching about the concept that there are others than the primary male/female genders at around the time the kids are going through puberty is a good strategy IMO.

Kinda like math, you just start with the basics at first and let the kids familiarize themselves with it (ie: Addition, subtraction, division and multiplication). Teach sex as hardware (ie: Chromosomes) and basically explain the differences between the two major categories and tell kids to protect their privates. Then in Junior high, you expand upon it (ie: Algebra). You explain the changes one may have during puberty and the different ways you may perceive yourself and/or attraction to others sexually. I think that's a good approach for teaching this topic.

You also mentioned grade 7. I was going to mention that I agreed with that age (Age 12) and that Age 14 seemed oddly late if you put students in a pool of other students (Junior high grades 7 to 9) who are already exploring their gender to a deeper level.

Stripping away the gender detail for a moment, some kids will know who they are to a deeper level than other kids. It's OK that kids aren't at the same level all the time and it's OK some kids are more advanced than other kids for certain topics. The point of school IMO is to give kids the tools they will need to succeed in the future. Not all of what they are taught will be guaranteed to be used, but you want to give them the best skills, tools and knowledge to succeed.

But I also agreed with your last point that the kids should have an opportunity to explore this independently from adult influence as well. The fact there are rules that schools/teachers must reveal the information seems too much. Like it started with best practices and guidelines and devolved into other stuff.

I also disagree somewhat to the comments that as a general rule of thumb bad parents won't know this stuff. Kids will do this with parents even if they have a good relationship with their parents.

Originally Posted by The Big Chill

Kids messing around has a far smaller consequence then forcing someone to hide their true identity.

The rule doesn't force anyone to hide anything. What's weird with the rule is the fact it formalizes some of this stuff to a level that I think many of us agree it does not need to be formalized to.

[Barnet Flame]

Originally Posted by Maritime Q-Scout

That policy is bonkers.

When I was in junior high two of my best friends were Deer and Mavs.

Like, unless you were super close to either of those guys, you didn't know their real name.

Teachers referred to them as Deer and Mavs.

If that policy was implemented during my schooling days there'd be a lot of "Who the F*** is Ryan?" floating around.

‘Alice’ would’ve been a better example to use.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by DoubleF

But IMO, if gender is a social construct, the I believe the child would be able to understand more of who they are in a larger social circle such as a school than a smaller one such as a family.

I don't agree with teaching the details of the other genders beyond the awareness that there exists other ones beyond the two primary ones in elementary school. I think it would confuse and overwhelm kids.

If gender is a social construct, then teaching the details of other genders (beyond the two primary ones) would only be confusing if you start with the premise that there are “two primary” ones. Conversations about gender don’t have to be complex or get into details, but I don’t think starting with a foundation based on their being two primary genders “and then some others exist” is really helpful to anyone, especially a child. It can as simple as explaining what gender is and a handful of examples of how people identify without getting into primary/secondary/tertiary gender categories, right?

Originally Posted by DoubleF

The rule doesn't force anyone to hide anything. What's weird with the rule is the fact it formalizes some of this stuff to a level that I think many of us agree it does not need to be formalized to.

The rule does force some children to hide who they are or how they feel like expressing themselves at school, if they don’t want parents to know.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by 110%

I wouldn’t rat on anyone, personally.Those unhinged parents, being a small percentage, are the ones to administratively wage war on schools and teachers. Would the non-disclosure rules about these issues extend to healthcare? Gender-affirming care surgery for a 10 year old?

Someone else suggested just use the legal name is all school records. Ok, but then could the child sue the school for discrimination based on these grounds?

It’s not nearly as easy to solve this as people are suggesting.

This is an entirely different kettle of fish that falls under different laws. I know very little about this except that an old colleague of mine has a child who is 12 or 13 who wants to transition from F to M. They are supportive of this and have had to jump through many hoops and spent hundreds of hours in consultation to get hormone blockers. I am not going to debate the morality of such, but from a logistical perspective, we are a long ways off from children undergoing any sort of medical procedure without a year or more admin work that involves multiple professionals and a #### ton of effort and from parents. The whole thing is a total nightmare to be honest.

[Yeah_Baby]

No physician is going to be providing gender affirming surgery to a 10-year-old. Jesus Christ.

For #### sakes it's a 3-4 year wait for publicly funded top surgery for adults.

Puberty blockers, which as IronMaiden outlined aren't prescribed easily, exist as a way for youth to prevent more intense dysphoria before adulthood when if they so choose they can look at other forms of gender affirming care.

Sorry for my tone, but I'm ####ing sick of reactionary talking points that aren't based in reality that think teachers hand out top surgery etc to teens like a bathroom pass.

[Maritime Q-Scout]

Originally Posted by Barnet Flame

‘Alice’ would’ve been a better example to use.

I used their real names rather than an obvious joke that I didn't see.

I feel shame.

My apologies everyone.

I'd especially like to extend a heartfelt apology to Alice, but Alice? Alice? Who the f*** is Alice?

Ok, now back to your regularly scheduled debate.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Maritime Q-Scout

I used their real names rather than an obvious joke that I didn't see.

I feel shame.

My apologies everyone.

I'd especially like to extend a heartfelt apology to Alice, but Alice? Alice? Who the f*** is Alice?

Ok, now back to your regularly scheduled debate.

Alice doesn't live here anymore

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

If gender is a social construct, then teaching the details of other genders (beyond the two primary ones) would only be confusing if you start with the premise that there are “two primary” ones. Conversations about gender don’t have to be complex or get into details, but I don’t think starting with a foundation based on their being two primary genders “and then some others exist” is really helpful to anyone, especially a child. It can as simple as explaining what gender is and a handful of examples of how people identify without getting into primary/secondary/tertiary gender categories, right?



The rule does force some children to hide who they are or how they feel like expressing themselves at school, if they don’t want parents to know.

I'm not an expert on the topic, so forgive me if I misspeak. This topic is kinda hard to discuss at times without accidently wandering off and getting lost in a bunch of noise. I try, but at times, unfortunately I just don't get it.

IMO two primary genders is not confusing. Our current world is literally like this. The vast majority of individual for now identify as male/female and gender norms wise we typically have male/female washrooms. As such, we have a gender norm expectations for these two primary categories. My thought process is that in this era of humanity, we teach kids how things are now. Then we equip them on how to address potential future change because there are a small current minority who fall into a category that is not the vast majority two.

If we are starting from scratch, I agree with you. But my kids are not starting from scratch. They are in this world so they will be part of the generation that has to embrace the flaws of this world and then change it from within.

Whether male and female will no longer be appropriate as the "vast majority" in the future, I do not know. But my comments are based on the fact that this is the reality we have as of now. That's why I suggested the path that I did above and that's how I personally plan on teaching my kids going forward. I'm not on the cutting edge of understanding this scenario, but I can only say that I plan on doing my best and doing it in a way that I feel is fair to my wife and I and our children. I grew up in an era where there was intolerance and disrespect. I've distilled things down to focusing on the acceptance and respect of all. Beyond that, I don't know. This is ultimately is still a topic that is relatively new to me.

I will likely have to deal with people who are Christofascists whether they be parents of peers, friends etc. and honestly speaking, I find more value in not engaging morons and spending more times in developing great human being (my kids). That's my stance. I will defend those who deserve defending and extend support as I am capable of doing, I just wouldn't spend time to specifically seek these types of individuals out, if that makes sense. I had my younger years where I'd debate and argue with people about understanding gender fluidity... I've concluded this is an absolute waste of time and my path is going to be a different one.


I agree the rule can force kids to hide who they are and how they express themselves if the schools are required to disclose that information to parents, with or without being requested to do so. Sorry, I misspoke there. I do want to ensure it is known that I do think and agree with you that the rule is stupid.

I meant that in general, most kids won't really hide who they are based solely or specifically to this rule. I meant that I felt that the odds that certain kids are terrified to express who they truly are will be for reasons that likely transcend this rule. The kids will be terrified of expressing who they are based on what they know the situation at home is, not because they do some research and find out the teachers have to tell their parents if they decide to openly explore this at Junior high age vs High School age.

[Fuzz]

Great discussion, but completely missing the point that Christofacists are working hard to take over school boards . While this discussion is one example of why it would be pretty bad, it's also one teensy tiny bit of what they will do to the education system in this province. I'm not a parent, but if I were this would really concern me and what the future of my child's education would look like when boards have been taken over by people who get their guidance not from facts and data, but from ancient books and whatever the #### wanders into their head from the ether.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Yeah_Baby

Puberty blockers, which as IronMaiden outlined aren't prescribed easily, exist as a way for youth to prevent more intense dysphoria before adulthood when if they so choose they can look at other forms of gender affirming care.

Five of six years ago, puberty blockers were not prescribed easily. That’s no longer the case - standards of care have changed in recent years, as the number of minors seeking care and the number of clinics treating them have increased dramatically. The linked article found much shorter assessment periods than was the standard a few years ago, including many clinics that will prescribe hormone blockers after a single visit.

https://www.reuters.com/investigates...ansyouth-care/

The article deals with the U.S., so it might not all apply to Canada. And it’s long. But it’s essential reading for anyone interested in the current state of transgendered treatment, and the contentious debates among experts in the field about changing standards of care.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by DoubleF

I try, but at times, unfortunately I just don't get it.

IMO two primary genders is not confusing. Our current world is literally like this. The vast majority of individual for now identify as male/female and gender norms wise we typically have male/female washrooms. As such, we have a gender norm expectations for these two primary categories. My thought process is that in this era of humanity, we teach kids how things are now. Then we equip them on how to address potential future change because there are a small current minority who fall into a category that is not the vast majority two.

How things are now is that in every single classroom on the planet there is at least one child (and probably more) who, in some way, does not fit into the gender binary, and the vast, vast majority of them are aware of it. What is absolutely vital is teaching every kid, in every class that this is normal, and is absolutely in no way "wrong."

Here is a lesson designed for students from grades 3-8. If you really feel like you personally "just don't get it" I highly recommend going through this lesson yourself. If your kids fall in that grade 3-8 range, it would be a great thing to do with them too!