I was thinking about the fires in Hawaii the other day and it just seems to me that those 'Fire Boats' that they have in New York Harbour?
Why not just keep a couple of those babies around just in case? Cant they chuck huge sums of water something like 300+ yards? They just intake it from the source beneath them and fire away.
Imagine having one of those moored outside Lahaina or meandering about Lake Okanagan just suppressing fires with huge amounts of easily accessible water.
There has to be a reason that wouldnt work otherwise you'd think someone would have done it.
Sadly it often takes a catastrophe and then someone to say "See I ####ing told you boats would have been a good idea" for something like that to take hold.
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I was thinking about the fires in Hawaii the other day and it just seems to me that those 'Fire Boats' that they have in New York Harbour?
Why not just keep a couple of those babies around just in case? Cant they chuck huge sums of water something like 300+ yards? They just intake it from the source beneath them and fire away.
Imagine having one of those moored outside Lahaina or meandering about Lake Okanagan just suppressing fires with huge amounts of easily accessible water.
There has to be a reason that wouldnt work otherwise you'd think someone would have done it.
It must be. You’d think these one off communities would have something built in, some 6 inch pipe from the lake with some massive horsepower as an emergency response plan with water cannons. It’s not like this doesn’t happen, every single year. These are usually rich people with $18MM mansions on the lake. I have 9000 HP of idle pumps sitting in my field.
For map junkies, this is a pretty good interactive map that shows the fires burning across Canada and the U.S. You can click on the fires to get fairly up to date information about the fire.
There more than 5,000 fires burning across Canada. Most of them are just monitored and allowed to burn. it is literally impossible to fight most of them because of the amount of resources required. Some of them in remote areas have been burning since spring.
I must be an idiot because I can't get that website to show me where the fires are located. I figured the red squares were showing the location of the fires but that can't be accurate. My best friend's place is in the Poplar Point area and has been only under a fire-alert status since the fire jumped the lake (with actual fires > 2km distance away from them) yet that website has had red squares situated over their place this entire time.
Sadly it often takes a catastrophe and then someone to say "See I ####ing told you boats would have been a good idea" for something like that to take hold.
I agree with fotze though, this happens all the time. Nearly like clockwork.
How many catastrophes do we need?
And I also agree that air-dropping water from a helicopter seems pretty wildly inefficient.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fotze2
It must be. You’d think these one off communities would have something built in, some 6 inch pipe from the lake with some massive horsepower as an emergency response plan with water cannons. It’s not like this doesn’t happen, every single year. These are usually rich people with $18MM mansions on the lake. I have 9000 HP of idle pumps sitting in my field.
And I'm no expert on pumps or fireboats or anything, but you're just pumping huge amounts of water from an easily accessible nearby source and shooting that water at nearby fire.
An literally inexhaustible supply of water. As long as theres enough Diesel to keep the pumps running you're in business.
This doesnt seem like rocket science, but as I said before, theres gotta be a reason that a solution this seemingly simple hasnt been implemented.
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I was thinking about the fires in Hawaii the other day and it just seems to me that those 'Fire Boats' that they have in New York Harbour?
Why not just keep a couple of those babies around just in case? Cant they chuck huge sums of water something like 300+ yards? They just intake it from the source beneath them and fire away.
Imagine having one of those moored outside Lahaina or meandering about Lake Okanagan just suppressing fires with huge amounts of easily accessible water.
There has to be a reason that wouldnt work otherwise you'd think someone would have done it.
One reason might be because, in the absence of a calamity like that being experienced right now, the purchase, staffing and ongoing maintenance of such boats doesn't look fiscally sound, whether in reality or perception. Even now, with a good amount of scientific consensus that we may be seeing the a normal in wildfires due to climate change, I imagine there would still be significant resistance to a solution and its related cost that could sit idle for a good portion of the time.
One reason might be because, in the absence of a calamity like that being experienced right now, the purchase, staffing and ongoing maintenance of such boats doesn't look fiscally sound, whether in reality or perception. Even now, with a good amount of scientific consensus that we may be seeing the a normal in wildfires due to climate change, I imagine there would still be significant resistance to a solution and its related cost that could sit idle for a good portion of the time.
Yeah...well...I could also do a real quick 'back-of-the-napkin' Cost/Benefit analysis on the costs of fire fighting, water bombers, over-working emergency services, property damage, loss of tourist revenue etc.
Methinks the benefits would start outweighing the costs pretty damned quickly.
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Yeah...well...I could also do a real quick 'back-of-the-napkin' Cost/Benefit analysis on the costs of fire fighting, water bombers, over-working emergency services, property damage, loss of tourist revenue etc.
Methinks the benefits would start outweighing the costs pretty damned quickly.
I'm not disagreeing with you - it makes sense to me. However, all it takes is a year or two of not requiring it and it starts to look like a potential political win for conservative governments looking for the cost-cutting voters support*.
*see 2023 UCP cuts to wildfire management
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I'm not disagreeing with you - it makes sense to me. However, all it takes is a year or two of not requiring it and it starts to look like a potential political win for conservative governments looking for the cost-cutting voters support*.
*see 2023 UCP cuts to wildfire management
Or just call up France and get a bunch of those 'Water Cannon Tanks' that they love to use on civilians...I know they're probably using those right now, but man, get a few of those chewing up the forest firing weaponized water!
"Eat Human Ingenuity you fiery bastard!!"
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Yeah...well...I could also do a real quick 'back-of-the-napkin' Cost/Benefit analysis on the costs of fire fighting, water bombers, over-working emergency services, property damage, loss of tourist revenue etc.
Methinks the benefits would start outweighing the costs pretty damned quickly.
Google says NYC's fireboat(s) costs $27mm and fires 50,000gpm, ~200m... The math seems pretty straightforward, but then you have to wonder how many boats you'd need on the Okanagan to be effective? Then your idle time liability becomes that much higher... Then there's the other lakes (I don't imagine a boat like that would be easily transported between lakes???)...
Still a drop in the bucket compared to the loses we'll see from these fires, but, well, people are stupid.
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South of the 49th parallel, the wildfires are bad in eastern Washington State. Interstate 90 is closed in both directions west of Spokane, 138 structures destroyed, and one person has died. https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/weath...927817bb&ei=21
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Google says NYC's fireboat(s) costs $27mm and fires 50,000gpm, ~200m... The math seems pretty straightforward, but then you have to wonder how many boats you'd need on the Okanagan to be effective? Then your idle time liability becomes that much higher... Then there's the other lakes (I don't imagine a boat like that would be easily transported between lakes???)...
Still a drop in the bucket compared to the loses we'll see from these fires, but, well, people are stupid.
You could probably make a similar case regarding Fire Trucks in Calgary. How often are they being fully utilized? Sure they sit around a lot sucking up tons of cash in maintenance and staffing.
But goddamn...when you need them they're worth every penny! And you will need them.
An 'Ounce of Prevention' and all that?
But for reference I was specifically thinking about the Lahaina fires because it happened right at the Harbour front, you park one of those fireboats 30 yards away a couple of those fireboats would have had that nonsense sorted in no time, the Okanagan is a different sequence of problems.
But still...some industrial pumps being fed a limitless source of water...cant we do better than sending humans with trucks into the blaze? And the water bombing doesnt seem efficient.
And one poster even mentioned it, we're often caught forgetting that the Okanagan valley is a very arid climate...the lakes and the wineries make people forget how dry that valley really is.
Hence why it tends to come ablaze on the regular.
But in the words of the Immortal Bard...Tom Segura..."Some People Suck."
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I must be an idiot because I can't get that website to show me where the fires are located. I figured the red squares were showing the location of the fires but that can't be accurate. My best friend's place is in the Poplar Point area and has been only under a fire-alert status since the fire jumped the lake (with actual fires > 2km distance away from them) yet that website has had red squares situated over their place this entire time.
i haven't heard of any fire in the poplar point area on the scanner. the fire started more north and above that area and has been moving north/west. i would assume they are on alert in case the fire starts going more south becuz of the change in wind
you guys were asking about fire boats.... we've got fire boats, but they are marine rescue boats - that's about it.
the kelowna department has an actual 'boat'
peachland, winfield/lake country and the north westside departments have equipment for lake rescues but i believe they are zodiaks (i think).
i wonder if part of the issue with fighting forest fires from okanagan lake is way the lake bottom is. it's been eons since i went in the lake but i remember being able to touch bottom and being quite a way from the shore - then the lake bottom just drops off like crazy. maybe a fire fighting boat just can't get close enough to be effective?
i know they regularly pump water from the lake to feed into sprinkler systems... but that kind of system isn't really doable for a forest fire - mostly just for structural protection.
from our deck, we could see trees across the lake literally explode into flames. in 2-3 seconds the tree was gone and all the trees around the burnt one were now going up just as fast. at times, thanks to the wind, the fire was moving thru the trees at a rank 6. there is nothing you can do to stop that.
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One reason might be because, in the absence of a calamity like that being experienced right now, the purchase, staffing and ongoing maintenance of such boats doesn't look fiscally sound, whether in reality or perception. Even now, with a good amount of scientific consensus that we may be seeing the a normal in wildfires due to climate change, I imagine there would still be significant resistance to a solution and its related cost that could sit idle for a good portion of the time.
Just seems weird it’s so reactive. Oil patch slant but we are regulated to have emergency response training for every operator, ICS 100, 200. Everyone is trained for emergency spill cleanup. Thousands of hours a year in training and mock exercises, for something way less likely to happen than these fires.
If you had an ability to limit the damage of a pipeline spill and you didn’t, you are crucified. Why do those that regulate private company not have nearly the same standards they themselves enforce?
i haven't heard of any fire in the poplar point area on the scanner. the fire started more north and above that area and has been moving north/west. i would assume they are on alert in case the fire starts going more south becuz of the change in wind
you guys were asking about fire boats.... we've got fire boats, but they are marine rescue boats - that's about it.
the kelowna department has an actual 'boat'
peachland, winfield/lake country and the north westside departments have equipment for lake rescues but i believe they are zodiaks (i think).
i wonder if part of the issue with fighting forest fires from okanagan lake is way the lake bottom is. it's been eons since i went in the lake but i remember being able to touch bottom and being quite a way from the shore - then the lake bottom just drops off like crazy. maybe a fire fighting boat just can't get close enough to be effective?
i know they regularly pump water from the lake to feed into sprinkler systems... but that kind of system isn't really doable for a forest fire - mostly just for structural protection.
from our deck, we could see trees across the lake literally explode into flames. in 2-3 seconds the tree was gone and all the trees around the burnt one were now going up just as fast. at times, thanks to the wind, the fire was moving thru the trees at a rank 6. there is nothing you can do to stop that.
Yeah but wheres the Giant Water Gun? The Giant Water Gun that sucks up lake water and shoots it at fire like the fire owes it money is the most important bit!
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A day after the B.C. government declared a provincial state of emergency, Premier David Eby has used that power to implement a tourist travel ban for areas that are currently impacted by fires, like the Okanagan. “This order will restrict travel in fire-affected areas when you are travelling for the purposes of staying in temporary accommodations, like a hotel, motel, provincial park or campground," he said Saturday. "This order says stay off the roads for tourist related non essential travel to stay in temporary accommodation.”
He noted the order does not affect people who are already in hotels.
“But we're really encouraging people who are in hotels and motels to talk to the operator and go home early," Eby added. "When you check out early, you're freeing up a hotel room for someone who's fleeing a wildfire. You're freeing up a hotel room for a firefighter who is battling forest fires in the area.
“We need all the accommodation we can get.”
i haven't heard of any fire in the poplar point area on the scanner. the fire started more north and above that area and has been moving north/west. i would assume they are on alert in case the fire starts going more south becuz of the change in wind
That's my understanding, too, yet the NASA site has shown multiple red squares over the area since Thursday evening.
As bad as all this has been, has there been any loss of (human) life yet? IIRC, there have been three firefighters killed across Canada but I don't recall if I've heard of civilian lives being lost. Looking for some silver lining here in all the gloom.
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