Electric vehicle war, is gas soon to be toast?

[DoubleK]

Originally Posted by photon

I was looking forward to the N Ioniq 5 but I dunno it feels hard to justify spending $80k on that car. I'd maybe want a Mach E GT or i4 though the Hyundai is probably a better car (we'll see how well it performs).

I've floated this with the wife and she didn't immediately say no....

Might wait for the second model year.

[Hack&Lube]

So I have both a work event and wedding coming up in Vegas in the next few months.

I'm seriously contemplating trying to do the road trip in the budget Model 3 (rwd, smaller battery). It looks like just the kind of adventure that would be way more fun to me than taking an airplane or spending time in Vegas for that matter since I hate that sort of thing.

Am I crazy? I tried a few EV route planners and it seems there are enough super chargers along the way to make it doable in just under 24 hours of driving/charging. Not sure if I want to buy a CCS adapter to take advantage of other networks like Electrify America, etc.

The biggest issue is planning where to stop. The route is mostly straight down through Idaho/Montana/Utah, etc. with no big cities (maybe Salt Lake City) until Vegas.

[Fuzz]

Depends how much time you have. Round trip that's 48 hours of transit time(plus sleep?)

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

So I have both a work event and wedding coming up in Vegas in the next few months.

I'm seriously contemplating trying to do the road trip in the budget Model 3 (rwd, smaller battery). It looks like just the kind of adventure that would be way more fun to me than taking an airplane or spending time in Vegas for that matter since I hate that sort of thing.

Am I crazy? I tried a few EV route planners and it seems there are enough super chargers along the way to make it doable in just under 24 hours of driving/charging. Not sure if I want to buy a CCS adapter to take advantage of other networks like Electrify America, etc.

The biggest issue is planning where to stop. The route is mostly straight down through Idaho/Montana/Utah, etc. with no big cities (maybe Salt Lake City) until Vegas.

It is probably a good experience to undertake. I had a friend who drove down to Salt Lake City and onwards to Moab and vowed to never do it again. It was just too slow, painful and anxiety inducing although this was pre Covid and the charger network has probably improved since that trip. I watch a lot of the Out of Spec Motoring YouTube videos and he does a lot of road trips between Fort Collins/Denver and LA/west coast so that might be a useful resource.

[bossy22]

My concern is the length of time. When we'd first started going to Moab, as soon as we hit the Montana interstate, we'd fly. We'd make good time. Yes we were burning gas but there are filling stations everywhere. We'd get to Moab in an easy day and half of driving. When we took our camper van. We couldn't speed like that. The van can't do it. So it soon became a long two days of driving.
With a Tesla, it's totally doable, but I'd have range anxiety so I wouldn't speed too much and plan way more than I normally would. I would think if you have the time though, it could be a fun trip.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by bossy22

My concern is the length of time. When we'd first started going to Moab, as soon as we hit the Montana interstate, we'd fly. We'd make good time. Yes we were burning gas but there are filling stations everywhere. We'd get to Moab in an easy day and half of driving. When we took our camper van. We couldn't speed like that. The van can't do it. So it soon became a long two days of driving.
With a Tesla, it's totally doable, but I'd have range anxiety so I wouldn't speed too much and plan way more than I normally would. I would think if you have the time though, it could be a fun trip.

The only issue is that I can't drive + charge for 24 hours so I would definitely need to stop halfway between Calgary and Vegas somewhere. Any recommendations of a place to stop over in?

On the trip planner, I've set it so I arrive at each charger with 15% charge so that should be enough buffer.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

The only issue is that I can't drive + charge for 24 hours so I would definitely need to stop halfway between Calgary and Vegas somewhere. Any recommendations of a place to stop over in?

On the trip planner, I've set it so I arrive at each charger with 15% charge so that should be enough buffer.

My preference when I drive down south is to stop in the Salt Lake City area. If that is a bit far then Idaho Falls is a good option. Pocatello is decent as well but I found the hotel options better in Idaho Falls.

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

So I have both a work event and wedding coming up in Vegas in the next few months.

I'm seriously contemplating trying to do the road trip in the budget Model 3 (rwd, smaller battery). It looks like just the kind of adventure that would be way more fun to me than taking an airplane or spending time in Vegas for that matter since I hate that sort of thing.

Am I crazy? I tried a few EV route planners and it seems there are enough super chargers along the way to make it doable in just under 24 hours of driving/charging. Not sure if I want to buy a CCS adapter to take advantage of other networks like Electrify America, etc.

The biggest issue is planning where to stop. The route is mostly straight down through Idaho/Montana/Utah, etc. with no big cities (maybe Salt Lake City) until Vegas.

What are you trying to accomplish? Autopilot/Leroy Jenkins it down? Or actually stop and soak in the local sights along the way?

I think the issue I'd personally have is more what I'd do when I stop rather than where I'd stop.

If your charging coincides with as minimal bathroom break and a sit down meal, shower, nap in car etc. then you can probably just Leroy Jenkins it down no problem. The city size isn't an issue and it doesn't really matter. Or maybe you have a small folding bike in your trunk that you'd hop on to explore around while the vehicle charges?

I'm wondering if you wouldn't be as tired as you think if you could rely on autopilot to reduce fatigue during the trip.

I think it might be interesting to do a combination of scenic and marathon. I'd also consider hitting as many unique states checklist style for bragging rights. A path something like Alberta, Montana, Wyoming, Utah, Arizona, Nevada, Oregon, Idaho, BC, Alberta... but I don't know if you have the time to do that or if it's beyond the scope of something you'd even be interested in.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by DoubleF

What are you trying to accomplish? Autopilot/Leroy Jenkins it down? Or actually stop and soak in the local sights along the way?

I think the issue I'd personally have is more what I'd do when I stop rather than where I'd stop.

If your charging coincides with as minimal bathroom break and a sit down meal, shower, nap in car etc. then you can probably just Leroy Jenkins it down no problem. The city size isn't an issue and it doesn't really matter. Or maybe you have a small folding bike in your trunk that you'd hop on to explore around while the vehicle charges?

I'm wondering if you wouldn't be as tired as you think if you could rely on autopilot to reduce fatigue during the trip.

I think it might be interesting to do a combination of scenic and marathon. I'd also consider hitting as many unique states checklist style for bragging rights. A path something like Alberta, Montana, Wyoming, Utah, Arizona, Nevada, Oregon, Idaho, BC, Alberta... but I don't know if you have the time to do that or if it's beyond the scope of something you'd even be interested in.

I would bring a full size gravel bike in the trunk

I like how you term it a Leroy Jenkins. I've never driven 25 hours nonstop but assuming that I could get enough REM sleep from 40 minute charge stops it may be possible! I'm more in it for the challenge like a classic Top Gear challenge rather than a tourist thing. I don't think traveling down middle America is very scenic anyway. It's highways and small towns.

I hate tourist things, thats why I'm thinking I'll drive my own car down and bike around the Nevada area rather than hang out in Vegas resorts if I have to be down there.

[savemedrzaius]

I live in a big Chinese city and it's probably 1/3 of all cars here are EVs now and about 90% taxis/Chinese Ubers are EVs.

[ripTDR]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

So I have both a work event and wedding coming up in Vegas in the next few months.

I'm seriously contemplating trying to do the road trip in the budget Model 3 (rwd, smaller battery). It looks like just the kind of adventure that would be way more fun to me than taking an airplane or spending time in Vegas for that matter since I hate that sort of thing.

Am I crazy? I tried a few EV route planners and it seems there are enough super chargers along the way to make it doable in just under 24 hours of driving/charging. Not sure if I want to buy a CCS adapter to take advantage of other networks like Electrify America, etc.

The biggest issue is planning where to stop. The route is mostly straight down through Idaho/Montana/Utah, etc. with no big cities (maybe Salt Lake City) until Vegas.

I would say do it. I've had my Model 3 long range down to the single digits before hitting superchargers in way smaller road trips here in BC and never really experienced anxiety. The trip planner estimates are usually pretty good and if I'm getting close I drive just under the speed limit. It's surprising how far they go.


I do however have a ccs adapter just in case

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by savemedrzaius

I live in a big Chinese city and it's probably 1/3 of all cars here are EVs now and about 90% taxis/Chinese Ubers are EVs.

Ev sales in China are now over 35% and as car ownership is growing there isn't a large installed base the penetration is rising quickly. They could be over 50% new car sales by next year and probably over 50% of total vehicles within 3 or 4 years

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

I would bring a full size gravel bike in the trunk

I like how you term it a Leroy Jenkins. I've never driven 25 hours nonstop but assuming that I could get enough REM sleep from 40 minute charge stops it may be possible! I'm more in it for the challenge like a classic Top Gear challenge rather than a tourist thing. I don't think traveling down middle America is very scenic anyway. It's highways and small towns.

I hate tourist things, thats why I'm thinking I'll drive my own car down and bike around the Nevada area rather than hang out in Vegas resorts if I have to be down there.

If you have the chance to try it, I'd say yes. Not taking the same path to and from Vegas and biking in more unique and varied locations/terrain sounds like an awesome challenge too

[Lubicon]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Ev sales in China are now over 35% and as car ownership is growing there isn't a large installed base the penetration is rising quickly. They could be over 50% new car sales by next year and probably over 50% of total vehicles within 3 or 4 years

What is the breakdown of electrical generation sources for China? EV's are great but are only one part of the equation. If (for example) China is generating a large portion of their electricity from coal generation and the environmental standards are low it could conceivably be worse having EV's than ICE vehicles. In the short term anyhow, until generation goes green as well.

And I say this a a guy who's generally supportive of EV's, there is absolutely a place for them and China is a fascinating market to watch for the reasons you state.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Lubicon

What is the breakdown of electrical generation sources for China? EV's are great but are only one part of the equation. If (for example) China is generating a large portion of their electricity from coal generation and the environmental standards are low it could conceivably be worse having EV's than ICE vehicles. In the short term anyhow, until generation goes green as well.



And I say this a a guy who's generally supportive of EV's, there is absolutely a place for them and China is a fascinating market to watch for the reasons you state.

2 things:

1) even in the dirtiest grid EVs have less lifetime emissions that ICE, though not near as beneficial

2) China is cleaning up their grid very fast

[NuclearFart]

Originally Posted by underGRADFlame

https://driving.ca/reviews/preview/2...db0fe963c/amp/

�� Ioniq 5 N-line

"internal combustion soundtrack described above and moving through a ‘spaceship-like’ sound before landing at a jet engine profile"

This sounds lame AF

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

I would bring a full size gravel bike in the trunk

I like how you term it a Leroy Jenkins. I've never driven 25 hours nonstop but assuming that I could get enough REM sleep from 40 minute charge stops it may be possible! I'm more in it for the challenge like a classic Top Gear challenge rather than a tourist thing. I don't think traveling down middle America is very scenic anyway. It's highways and small towns.

I hate tourist things, thats why I'm thinking I'll drive my own car down and bike around the Nevada area rather than hang out in Vegas resorts if I have to be down there.

So, did you ever do this challenge? Any stories to share?

[Since1984]

Electric vehicle market is slowing....

With signs of growing inventory and slowing sales, auto industry executives admitted this week that their ambitious electric vehicle plans are in jeopardy, at least in the near term.

Several C-Suite leaders at some of the biggest carmakers this week voiced fresh unease about the electric car market's growth as concerns over the viability of these vehicles put their multi-billion-dollar electrification strategies at risk.

Among the surprising hand-wringing is GM's Mary Barra, historically one of the automotive industry's most bullish CEOs on the future of electric vehicles. GM has been an early-mover in the electric car market, selling the Chevrolet Bolt for seven years and making bold claims about a fully electric future for the company long before their competitors got on board.

But this week on GM's third-quarter earnings call, Barra and GM struck a more sober tone. The company announced with its quarterly results that it's abandoning its targets to build 100,000 EVs in the second half or this year and another 400,000 by the first six months of 2024. GM doesn't know anymore when it will hit those targets.

https://www.businessinsider.com/auto...orking-2023-10

[Street Pharmacist]

Interesting times for North American car makers, at least the big 3 anyways. Absolutely massive win by the UAW means Detroit's competitiveness just took a big hit. Ford estimates that this deal will add about $800 per vehicle. Average wages are now going to be over $100,000 USD with top tier health care and retirement benefits.

Add in a slowing vehicle market and you're seeing a reluctance to invest in new technology. I get it, your manufacturing costs just went up so you decrease expenses. The trouble with this strategy is that old technology vehicle sales (ice) are most at risk. They need the investment now so they can compete in the future. Vehicle sales are more global now than ever and they need the investment to scale up so their costs can come down.

Globally, vehicle sales peaked in 2017. Since then, all of the growth is in electric vehicles. It doesn't take a economics guru to see what a vehicle company needs to do to be competitive in the future. Almost a third of all vehicles (including ones made by Ford, GM, and Stellantis) are made in China and I don't see this increase in costs helping that trend.


Sent from my Pixel 8 Pro using Tapatalk

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Interesting times for North American car makers, at least the big 3 anyways. Absolutely massive win by the UAW means Detroit's competitiveness just took a big hit. Ford estimates that this deal will add about $800 per vehicle. Average wages are now going to be over $100,000 USD with top tier health care and retirement benefits.

Add in a slowing vehicle market and you're seeing a reluctance to invest in new technology. I get it, your manufacturing costs just went up so you decrease expenses. The trouble with this strategy is that old technology vehicle sales (ice) are most at risk. They need the investment now so they can compete in the future. Vehicle sales are more global now than ever and they need the investment to scale up so their costs can come down.

Globally, vehicle sales peaked in 2017. Since then, all of the growth is in electric vehicles. It doesn't take a economics guru to see what a vehicle company needs to do to be competitive in the future. Almost a third of all vehicles (including ones made by Ford, GM, and Stellantis) are made in China and I don't see this increase in costs helping that trend.


Sent from my Pixel 8 Pro using Tapatalk

The big thing is that Chinese EV companies haven't even matured and broken into the North American market. Their huge install base means a huge test bed to develop and mature technologies. The huge installed market base also means they have economy of scale to mass produce as well as trial innovations. Once that happens, it will be like the 60s/70s when cheaper but more innovative Japanese imports disrupted the North American market and dominated.