GRIT Index 23-24

[bdubbs]

Agree with the powerplay comment. If we can manage a strong PP this year, it won't matter about having an enforcer. Teams trying to take liberties can be made to regret it via the scoreboard.

[HighLifeMan]

Originally Posted by Phaneufenstein

Thanks for actually reading my post.

I didn't advocate for having an enforcer, like many in the thread assume.

The bolded are the same questions I'm asking and how it will affect the the way the team plays during the regular season and potentially playoffs.

Dirtbags like E.Kane etc, are likely to be a lot more effective at their dirtbag tricks without that presence on the Flames.

How can this be mitigated and is management looking at options and what those options can be?

Dirtbags like E.Kane can be mitigated and rendered useless by not playing into their antics. Take the powerplays and move on.

Being difficult to play against can involve many things, such as limiting the time and space the opposition has, finishing checks, and playing with consistent structure.

The game is too fast and too skilled nowadays for the likes of Milan Lucic, and Ryan Reaves to be every day players. They can still fill a role in a dressing room and as a 13th forward, but I really don't see anyway they can provide a positive impact playing 10-12 minutes a night.

[1qqaaz]

A lot of people down here regularly attend AHL, ECHL, NCAA, and SPHL games.
Hardly anyone is an avid hockey fan. Most non-season ticket holders want to see fights at these games. I'm not sure they'd sell nearly as many tickets without them. But fighting is a huge entertainment factor in the USA.

The NHL, or even the CHL, is a different beats. But still, decisions are made based on money. And simply put, the NHL might make more money with fighting in the game. Even with the lawsuits, etc.

[Phaneufenstein]

Originally Posted by HighLifeMan

Dirtbags like E.Kane can be mitigated and rendered useless by not playing into their antics. Take the powerplays and move on.

Being difficult to play against can involve many things, such as limiting the time and space the opposition has, finishing checks, and playing with consistent structure.

The game is too fast and too skilled nowadays for the likes of Milan Lucic, and Ryan Reaves to be every day players. They can still fill a role in a dressing room and as a 13th forward, but I really don't see anyway they can provide a positive impact playing 10-12 minutes a night.

That sounds great in theory, but I think the reality is very different.
Intimidation is real and teams play a different game when they are intimidated vs. when they are the intimidators.

Also, I don't think anyone is suggesting guys like Lucic and Reaves get 12 min a night or even giving them a roster spot. You need players that are tough and play a regular shift and I think that hasn't been addressed properly. Our line-up looks pretty soft is what I'm getting at.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I'm ready to let go of the fighting era ...

I get that it's moving away, have always found it interesting to see MMA rising in the US with the NHL trying to avoid fighting though, but that's a different argument.

With Lucic though I don't think it comes down to fighting majors. It's more complicated than that. How many guys honestly were willing to fight him? What was his affect on the ice that isn't measured in fight totals? Will his absence mean more guys are run?

Just asking the questions, because I honestly don't know.

Guessing it's a bigger impact than some are willing to admit and less impactful than others assume.

I think an important question missing there is how many guys was Lucic willing to fight?

The thing with Lucic and most of the (few) enforcers left in the game is that they just fight each other. The “code” means they shy away from more rough stuff than they actually engage in. It doesn’t stop guys like Kane and Trouba from running around. We’ve seen that over the last couple of years.

Who was the last non-enforcer/bottom line-up fighter Lucic fought? Ian Cole? Zadorov in 2019?

The guys that run around don’t fight these guys. Lucic didn’t even go with Kassian when Kassian went chasing Tkachuk. Tkachuk had to fight Kassian himself. Hard to respect Lucic’s “toughness” after that.

[HighLifeMan]

Originally Posted by Phaneufenstein

That sounds great in theory, but I think the reality is very different.
Intimidation is real and teams play a different game when they are intimidated vs. when they are the intimidators.

Also, I don't think anyone is suggesting guys like Lucic and Reaves get 12 min a night or even giving them a roster spot. You need players that are tough and play a regular shift and I think that hasn't been addressed properly. Our line-up looks pretty soft is what I'm getting at.

If a team is being intimidated - to me that more so speaks to the mental makeup of the group than anything - which can be a real issue. You need guys that will battle and compete (with consistency) in the hard areas of the ice. Weegar and Pelletier are perfect examples of this. Obviously size will always play a factor to some degree, but going out and signing guys like Nick Ritchie for example really does nothing. Every team wants a Tkachuk or Wilson, but they are few and far between.

[GioforPM]

Lucic is more effective as a tough guy in a sort of proactive role - like when he gave Benn a warning. The problem with saying he didn't fight when guys got hit is most times he's not on the ice. The guys that fought were. If he leaves the bench he's suspended. If it happens later, it's artificial. And maybe at a bad time to be taking an instigator.

BTW, Tkachuk is effective as a phsyical player, but he's no enforcer. He won't fight unless forced to, and when he does, he doesn't usually fare well.

[Bingo]

I think the teams that can accumulate some big players with wheels and a penchant for laying the body probably intimidate more than any elite fighter.

Ferland against Vancouver was a great example.

Completely in their heads.

Calgary has Duehr for size and speed, but then they're not all that imposing.

[gvitaly]

I used to absolutely love fighting in hockey. Not because of the actual fights, but because I could see the players' passion. Fights used to absolutely change the momentum of the game, or even send a message to the other team that the next meeting is going to be a battle.

Fighting now just seems so generic. Take the game against the NYR, Trouba throws a big hit, and he's already dropping the gloves. Did the fights actually accomplish anything aside from giving the Rangers more PPs? It's almost as though players fight not because they're frustrated, or angry, but because they have to.

Another example that got me angry was essentially when Kassian was calling Tkachuk out in the media, which lead to the two fighting. I didn't see Lucic do the same to Kassian after the fact. I would also argue that all the extra curricular activities were the reason Calgary lost to EDM in the playoffs. After every scrum the refs would either make it a 4on4 or take a guy out from either CGY or EDM. That clearly favored EDM because it let them use their special team and avoid playing 5on5

Long story short, I wouldn't miss fighting in the slightest if it was gone now.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by bdubbs

Agree with the powerplay comment. If we can manage a strong PP this year, it won't matter about having an enforcer. Teams trying to take liberties can be made to regret it via the scoreboard.

The whole PP argument, as a deterrent to physicality, is bunk, IMO.

Only 5 teams had a PP% less than 18%, and only 2 teams had one higher than 25%. Also, regardless of how physical or dirty your team is, the refs are going to call between 3 and 4 penalties against you per game (on average).

Improving your PP might get you one more goal every 5 to 10 games, which will have no impact, whatsoever, on how other teams play you. If word gets out across the league that your team can be intimidated, you're dead. Full stop.

To the general argument, people always talk about fighters and goons and intimidators - that misses the mark. Physical play, and being an intimidating team vs an intimidated team, is about the entire roster. It's about size, and style of play, and mindset. Vegas is the perfect example of a big fast intimidating team, and it isn't about any enforcers.

I agree with those that say the Flames are currently too small and too soft. But I also like the way they drafted this year, and it says to me that management agrees that they need to get bigger.

[Bandwagon Surfer]

Maybe I am missing the context from the other threads, but what is the GRIT Index?

Like how how it calculated? How do we statistically evaluate its predictive capabilities? How much has it chaned from 2022-2023 to 2023-2024?

Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere. My google skills are not helping me figure this out.

[mile]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon Surfer

Maybe I am missing the context from the other threads, but what is the GRIT Index?

Like how how it calculated? How do we statistically evaluate its predictive capabilities? How much has it chaned from 2022-2023 to 2023-2024?

Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere. My google skills are not helping me figure this out.

https://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthread.php?p=4368194

[Phaneufenstein]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon Surfer

Maybe I am missing the context from the other threads, but what is the GRIT Index?

Like how how it calculated? How do we statistically evaluate its predictive capabilities? How much has it chaned from 2022-2023 to 2023-2024?

Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere. My google skills are not helping me figure this out.

It was definitely in jest. It's not an actual metric. Sorry if this caused confusion.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Phaneufenstein

It was definitely in jest. It's not an actual metric. Sorry if this caused confusion.

Actually there is one, not sure how official it is.

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Lucic never did much of anything to punish guys.

Maybe he served as a deterrent just because he's Looch, but it's hard to say how much of an effect he had.

The game has changed quite a bit in the 10 years since LA's big, mean team marched to the cup.

[Phaneufenstein]

IMO

In the past 6 years only Colorado was a team that relied on more skill and speed to win it all. The rest of the teams had good size/toughness and ranged from kind of mean to quite mean.

[CSharp]

Originally Posted by TrentCrimmIndependent

Lucic never did much of anything to punish guys.

Maybe he served as a deterrent just because he's Looch, but it's hard to say how much of an effect he had.

The game has changed quite a bit in the 10 years since LA's big, mean team marched to the cup.

Umm say hello VGK and most of the Cup winners in the past 10 years. All have grit and size in addition to speed, skills, at least 2 franchise players, depth, and especially a bit of luck.

Flames going into the this next couple of seasons have almost none of those LOL.

[GioforPM]

My best memories of Looch were how he could intimidate Dmen on a dump in into giving up the puck early. I can't recall a single fight that had an impact like that.

[HighLifeMan]

Originally Posted by Phaneufenstein

IMO

In the past 6 years only Colorado was a team that relied on more skill and speed to win it all. The rest of the teams had good size/toughness and ranged from kind of mean to quite mean.

Tampa was certainly not overly big, physical or intimidating.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by CSharp

Umm say hello VGK and most of the Cup winners in the past 10 years. All have grit and size in addition to speed, skills, at least 2 franchise players, depth, and especially a bit of luck.

Flames going into the this next couple of seasons have almost none of those LOL.

Vegas had gritty players. Size? No more than any other team really. Their best players are right round 6'-602" league average except Marchessault, whi's tiny and Stone, who's 6'3. They have a pretty big D corp, but not bigger than the Flames, really.