[Trade] Flames trade Toffoli to NJ for RFA rights to Sharangovich and 80th OA

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Oh yes, the Gaudreau syndrome, way to small.

Seriously though, he's not 5'5 he's 6'0 tall, taller than Saros, a whole inch shorter than Shesterkin, Lundqvist and our last great goalie Kipper, Patrick Roy was 6'0 and Grant Fuhr was 5'10.

I'll take talent, style and cat like reflexes over an inch or two every day and twice on Sundays

That’s fine
You asserted Wolf had more trade value
I’m telling you why that’s not the case

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Sandman

I would add to that the fact that they've already been dominant in men's leagues, before they turned 20 years old. Askarov is 6'4", and Wallstedt is 6'3". Both were rated ahead of Wolf in the most recent Prospects Issue by THN.

And here I thought the AHL was the second best men's league in the world, silly me

By the way, THN has been just a rag mag for 15 years, the staff they have left are nothing more than internet surfers with writing skills, they don't have one employee watching hockey in western Canada

[Sandman]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

And here I thought the AHL was the second best men's league in the world, silly me

By the way, THN has been just a rag mag for 15 years, the staff they have left are nothing more than internet surfers with writing skills, they don't have one employee watching hockey in western Canada

Wolf was not dominating a men's league before he was 20 years old, he was still in junior.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

That’s fine
You asserted Wolf had more trade value
I’m telling you why that’s not the case

Actually you're telling me why you think that’s not the case, no different than me telling you I think Wolf has more value right now, what I do know is Wolf's name has come up a lot in trade discussions for over a year now and the answer is always a big no.

Wallstedt and Askarov are more recent 1st rounders that haven't proved anything yet nor have they lit the AHL on fire either, other teams wouldn't even bother bring them into trade discussions due to draft pedigree.

Both could very end up better but right now Wolf has 5 straight seasons of incredible play that as far as I can tell hasn't been seen for decades, teams see this, scouts see this and the Flames are telling them to go to hell, he's not available.

[Sandman]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Actually you're telling me why you think that’s not the case, no different than me telling you I think Wolf has more value right now, what I do know is Wolf's name has come up a lot in trade discussions for over a year now and the answer is always a big no.

Wallstedt and Askarov are more recent 1st rounders that haven't proved anything yet nor have they lit the AHL on fire either, other teams wouldn't even bother bring them into trade discussions due to draft pedigree.

Both could very end up better but right now Wolf has 5 straight seasons of incredible play that as far as I can tell hasn't been seen for decades, teams see this, scouts see this and the Flames are telling them to go to hell, he's not available.

You're assuming that Wallstedt and Askarov have not come up in trade discussions with their respective teams- how do you know that the same scenario hasn't happened with those two, with their teams saying no? You're only hearing Flames news and rumours.

Look, at the very WORST we have a top-3 goaltending prospect in the NHL. There's nothing at all wrong with that.

[AustinL_NHL]

The likely case:

Some teams (probably few) value Wolf higher than any other goalie prospect and most teams value Wallstedt/Askarov over Wolf.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Sandman

Wolf was not dominating a men's league before he was 20 years old, he was still in junior.

Sure, but what did he do the last 2 years? at 20 Wolf's rookie season was 33-9-4 - 2.35 GAA - 0.924 Pct in Stockton, and he was even better at 21

Wallstedt at 20 was 18-15-5 - 2.68 GAA - 0.908 Pct in Des Moines

Askarov at 20 was 26-16-5 - 2.70 GAA - 0.903 Pct in Milwaukee

Due to rules Wolf had to play junior till 20 unless he was brought up to the NHL, which we all know would never happen, had he been allowed to play against men in the AHL at 18 I have no doubt he would have been very good. nothing in his play suggests different.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Sandman

You're assuming that Wallstedt and Askarov have not come up in trade discussions with their respective teams- how do you know that the same scenario hasn't happened with those two, with their teams saying no? You're only hearing Flames news and rumours.

Look, at the very WORST we have a top-3 goaltending prospect in the NHL. There's nothing at all wrong with that.

It might be an assumption but it only makes sense, Wallstedt and Askarov are new former 1st rounders with only a year in NA, teams know they would have to pay a price to get them and their unproven so they wouldn't bother, Wolf on the other hand was found money, a 7th round pick with far better stats than former #1 overall Marc-Andre Fleury, when Treliving signed Vladar to a 2 year extension his phone rang off the hook for a month with inquiries on Wolf.

[Sandman]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

It might be an assumption but it only makes sense, Wallstedt and Askarov are new former 1st rounders with only a year in NA, teams know they would have to pay a price to get them and their unproven so they wouldn't bother, Wolf on the other hand was found money, a 7th round pick with far better stats than former #1 overall Marc-Andre Fleury, when Treliving signed Vladar to a 2 year extension his phone rang off the hook for a month with inquiries on Wolf.

Well, even though we aren't very far apart in our opinions, it seems we just won't be able to agree on this one. Much respect Snuffy.

[CliffFletcher]

Size is more of a factor with goalies than any other position. NHL snipers today are so accurate that even an extra inch or two of open net is enough to exploit.

Wolf’s anticipation and athleticism may compensate for those extra inches. But the jury is out until he has a body of work playing against elite NHL snipers.

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by butterfly

Could be either, both, or neither. Depends on what got traded and who else was available.

It’s 100% drafting when you traded for a pick that the draft hasn’t started and you have no idea who would be available at that spot

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

It might be an assumption but it only makes sense, Wallstedt and Askarov are new former 1st rounders with only a year in NA, teams know they would have to pay a price to get them and their unproven so they wouldn't bother, Wolf on the other hand was found money, a 7th round pick with far better stats than former #1 overall Marc-Andre Fleury, when Treliving signed Vladar to a 2 year extension his phone rang off the hook for a month with inquiries on Wolf.

Maybe use better comparisons. Fleury played 22 games right out of junior as an 18 year old. He had a better sv% than Pittsburgh's #1G

By the time he was Wolf's age he had a 76-67-19 NHL record and 15-10 playoff record winning 3 playoff series losing 4 games to 2 against the Red Wings in the finals.



Maybe try Spencer Knight or Carter Hart that were NHL regulars by age 20.

[Icantwhisper]

Why are we talking about Wolf in this thread, done here going to the 2023/2024 Trade Rumors and Speculation thread, oh god damn it!!!!

[dustygoon]

Just pivoting back to Sharangovich and that trade....the original point i was making in showing that ranking was that the return for Foli at the time seemed meh. At least to me.

But given a redraft exercise i see that the guy has more value/upside than i realized.

Conroy's first trade looks pretty decent given the environment.

Great point earlier by someone....can't recall as it's lost in the back and forth!.....but had we got a 1st rounder for TT instead of the 3rd, there is a decent chance we end up with the same prospects anyway, but this way we get Sharangovich.

[saillias]

Not sure how serious it should be taken when a GM says they got a prospect they had ranked in the first round with their 3rd rounder. Always seems to happen. Ok well if they had a late 1st then they probably had a guy ranked in the top 10 or the top 15 that fell to them. It's just a nice confidence boost for a kid and hypes fans up while being harmless and unverifiable.

Meanwhile Conroy also admitted in the Kerr interview of multiple cases where a team 1 spot ahead of them got the guy they wanted, who then proceeded to become a really good player and terrorize the Flames

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by saillias

Meanwhile Conroy also admitted in the Kerr interview of multiple cases where a team 1 spot ahead of them got the guy they wanted, who then proceeded to become a really good player and terrorize the Flames

The 2020 one hurts. The Flames loved Dawson Mercer, but the Devils grab him at #18, one spot ahead of the Flames.

A recent 2020 redraft in the Athletic had Mercer going #8 and Zary outside the first round. Oof.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by traptor

Sharangovich was on overager so he is a couple years older then most of the players in that draft.

True, but that may be more of a positive than a negative in this case.

Drafts are a snapshot in time. Redrafts are an exercise in progression.

Sharangovich wasn't drafted during his first two years of eligibility. But by his 3rd year, he was taken in the 3rd round (nice progression). Now, a few years later, he has risen 130 spots in the ranks to 11th OA (by this source). That is incredible progression.

And progression is everything, when it comes to prospects.

[Reggie Dunlop]

I thought the Toffoli deal was good value, given that it was apparent around the league that Conroy was the motivated seller (and still is). Nobody's going to do a new GM any favours.

[Enoch Root]

Yes, Suniev was a 3rd round pick - saying you ranked him higher doesn't change that it was still a 3rd round pick. However, let's also remember - and concede - that this was an incredibly deep draft, and the 3rd round pick was worth much more than a typical 3rd (many scouts suggest Suniev would be a late 1st or early 2nd in most drafts). So simply saying the return for Toffoli was Sharangovich + 3rd, is also a bit misleading, because this 3rd was not like most 3rds.

As for Suniev specifically, the Flames did have him ranked much higher, and had his name on a jersey for their 2nd round pick - so suggesting he's more of a 2nd round pick is not at all unreasonable (both sides of that argument are valid).

And no, they did not have a nameplate for Morin, as they did not think he would make it to 48. They were going to take Suniev, but pivoted to Morin when he was still available. Then got Suniev at 80, regardless.

And yes, to the poster that said they probably take the same players if they got NJ's 45 instead of 80, yes, they would have taken Morin at 45 and Suniev at 48.

[Reggie Dunlop]

I wonder if the Flames had a Bedard jersey stitched up and ready to go....