Star Trek General Discussion

[Barnes]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Moment of the episode and just a gripping climax. Delivered with quiet ferocity. It was chilling.

I also agree with the choice to shoot that scene obscured. I think we all know what happened but I suppose we are left with the same level of certainty as everyone else... there's only one person who really knows.

Who directed this one? Was it Frakes as well?

A Spike Lee protégé. Jeffrey W. Byrd https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0126032/

[Shazam]

Got a lot of DS9 vibes from this episode.

This show is so enjoyable. And I love that there's always some sci-fi element in each episode.

[sureLoss]

Originally Posted by Shazam

Got a lot of DS9 vibes from this episode.

Yeah the episode was probably inspired by Nor the Battle to the Strong and The Siege of AR-558.

[timun]

Chapel's debrief with Pike and #1, and M'Benga's conversation at the end with Pike, both felt a lot like Sisko's "I will learn to live with it. Because I can live with it... I can live with it... " at the end of the DS9 episode "In the Pale Moonlight".

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

Yeah the episode was probably inspired by Nor the Battle to the Strong and The Siege of AR-558.

Still one of my favorite episodes of DS-9. And ARon Eisenberg (RIP) did a stellar job of that and his story line on dealing with his wounds.

I don't know how Star Fleet could possibly sweep the fact that M'Benga did genocide under the rug.

I mean I get that our Klingon friends whole life was a lie. That he stated that he couldn't stomach the civillian and starfleet slaughter and so killed his own troops. But instead, it was the good doctor.

But the question is really who started the fight, and if it was M'Benga then Chapel helped cover that up in terms of the knife evidence.

Again eventually in Star Trek things like this will come out, maybe we get a Klingon witness that comes forward and says that the real butcher is in Star Fleet uniform.

But you look at M'Benga lying about his daughter. then on two occasions at least taking an illicit psycho making drug(Yes he used it in a justifable manner in his mind, but does the ends justify the means?). And that he possibly committed a war crime and then murdered an ambassador. You get the sense that all of this is going to boil over, and maybe in the last episode you see M'Benga leaving and McCoy beaming on board.

But this story isn't done by a long shot.

[timun]

I think you're a bit confused, Cap'n.

M'Benga did not "genocide" anyone. Dak'rah, as a general and leader of the Klingon forces on J'Gal, ordered his men to kill anyone who wasn't a Klingon soldier. This meant the indiscriminate killing of civilian colonists.

The story he told everyone was that he killed the next level of Klingon leadership below him—General Gra'val, Captain Ruh'lis and Commander Kiff—because they disobeyed orders to stop the killing of civilians. He's known by the nickname "The Butcher of J'Gal" by both sides: by Federation forces for the original order to kill anyone and everyone, and by the Klingons for having been a turncoat who 'butchered' his own senior leadership and defected to the other side.

M'Benga was the real "Butcher of J'Gal" from the Klingon perspective, insofar as he is the one who actually killed Gra'val, Ruh'lis and Kiff. In reality, Dak'rah simply fled while Gra'val, Ruh'lis and Kiff fought off a Federation special ops soldier on a mission to kill them all: M'Benga.

Dak'rah's story was entirely untrue. From the Klingon perspective, he wasn't just a turncoat who killed his subordinates: he was a coward who fled from the battlefield as those very same subordinates fought off a Starfleet soldier. That's why he said he was ashamed of his cowardice.

However, what's even more damning is that from the Federation perspective he isn't really a Klingon general who saw the errors of his ways and killed his own men when they wouldn't follow his order to stop killing civvies: he never gave the order to stop. The only reason the killing stopped is because Dak'rah fled while M'Benga succeeded in killing the senior Klingon leadership.

There would be no Klingon witnesses to dispute Dak'rah's story: M'Benga killed them all. And it was most certainly not a war crime: he targetted only Klingon forces.

Chapel did not tamper with the knife: the d'k tahg had blood from Gra'val, Ruh'lis and Kiff on it because it was the knife used to kill them all. The only lie Chapel perpetuated is she let Chin-Riley and Pike believe the knife belonged to Dak'rah, when it reality we the viewers know it it belonged to M'Benga, because it still fits the commonly-believed narrative that Dak'rah killed his own men.

[nik-]

Bunny Colvin: Klingon war criminal

[Shazam]

^^ Yeah, that's what made the episode so awesome. Cripes what a twist.

[timun]

Originally Posted by nik-

Bunny Colvin: Klingon war criminal

I got about halfway through the episode before I paused and looked up the cast on IMDB, because it was driving me crazy trying of think of where I'd seen that actor before. When I found him on the episode cast list it all clicked and I went "OH! BUNNY COLVIN! ####, I can't believe I couldn't put that together."

[nik-]

Originally Posted by timun

I got about halfway through the episode before I paused and looked up the cast on IMDB, because it was driving me crazy trying of think of where I'd seen that actor before. When I found him on the episode cast list it all clicked and I went "OH! BUNNY COLVIN! ####, I can't believe I couldn't put that together."

It's always immediate for me with so many Wire actors. Even going back and watching Goodfellas I'm like "It's Dr. Senator Clay Davis!"

[CaptainCrunch]

So maybe its a small complaint, and its just me, but at times does anyone find M'Benga hard to understand. I mean he's soft spoken, but sometimes it feels mumbly.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by timun

I think you're a bit confused, Cap'n.

M'Benga did not "genocide" anyone. Dak'rah, as a general and leader of the Klingon forces on J'Gal, ordered his men to kill anyone who wasn't a Klingon soldier. This meant the indiscriminate killing of civilian colonists.

The story he told everyone was that he killed the next level of Klingon leadership below him—General Gra'val, Captain Ruh'lis and Commander Kiff—because they disobeyed orders to stop the killing of civilians. He's known by the nickname "The Butcher of J'Gal" by both sides: by Federation forces for the original order to kill anyone and everyone, and by the Klingons for having been a turncoat who 'butchered' his own senior leadership and defected to the other side.

M'Benga was the real "Butcher of J'Gal" from the Klingon perspective, insofar as he is the one who actually killed Gra'val, Ruh'lis and Kiff. In reality, Dak'rah simply fled while Gra'val, Ruh'lis and Kiff fought off a Federation special ops soldier on a mission to kill them all: M'Benga.

Dak'rah's story was entirely untrue. From the Klingon perspective, he wasn't just a turncoat who killed his subordinates: he was a coward who fled from the battlefield as those very same subordinates fought off a Starfleet soldier. That's why he said he was ashamed of his cowardice.

However, what's even more damning is that from the Federation perspective he isn't really a Klingon general who saw the errors of his ways and killed his own men when they wouldn't follow his order to stop killing civvies: he never gave the order to stop. The only reason the killing stopped is because Dak'rah fled while M'Benga succeeded in killing the senior Klingon leadership.

There would be no Klingon witnesses to dispute Dak'rah's story: M'Benga killed them all. And it was most certainly not a war crime: he targetted only Klingon forces.

Chapel did not tamper with the knife: the d'k tahg had blood from Gra'val, Ruh'lis and Kiff on it because it was the knife used to kill them all. The only lie Chapel perpetuated is she let Chin-Riley and Pike believe the knife belonged to Dak'rah, when it reality we the viewers know it it belonged to M'Benga, because it still fits the commonly-believed narrative that Dak'rah killed his own men.

Good Lord Man....

[timun]

Originally Posted by nik-

It's always immediate for me with so many Wire actors. Even going back and watching Goodfellas I'm like "It's Dr. Senator Clay Davis!"

He was in Goodfellas!? Whaaaaaat!?!?

EDIT: HE PLAYED A DOCTOR IN GOODFELLAS!? WTF I don't remember this at all!

[timun]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

So maybe its a small complaint, and its just me, but at times does anyone find M'Benga hard to understand. I mean he's soft spoken, but sometimes it feels mumbly.

I too have troubles understanding Babs Olusanmokun. I turned closed captioning on and rewound three times last night, twice because of him, and once during the climactic fight behind the frosted glass because I couldn't understand Robert Wisdom. Granted they were struggling over the knife so it was said through gritted teeth.

I can't tell if it's his accent; his quiet, "breathy" delivery; or a combination of both.

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by timun

He was in Goodfellas!? Whaaaaaat!?!?

EDIT: HE PLAYED A DOCTOR IN GOODFELLAS!? WTF I don't remember this at all!

Well Shiiiieeeeeeet

[Duruss]

I absolutely love nurse Chapel, and M'Benga. I didn't think they would be my favorites when this all started, but I really like the actors and how the deliver their very well written parts.

Captain Pike side eyeing Ortegas was great too.

[csnarpy]

Originally Posted by timun

I think you're a bit confused, Cap'n.

M'Benga did not "genocide" anyone. Dak'rah, as a general and leader of the Klingon forces on J'Gal, ordered his men to kill anyone who wasn't a Klingon soldier. This meant the indiscriminate killing of civilian colonists.

The story he told everyone was that he killed the next level of Klingon leadership below him—General Gra'val, Captain Ruh'lis and Commander Kiff—because they disobeyed orders to stop the killing of civilians. He's known by the nickname "The Butcher of J'Gal" by both sides: by Federation forces for the original order to kill anyone and everyone, and by the Klingons for having been a turncoat who 'butchered' his own senior leadership and defected to the other side.

M'Benga was the real "Butcher of J'Gal" from the Klingon perspective, insofar as he is the one who actually killed Gra'val, Ruh'lis and Kiff. In reality, Dak'rah simply fled while Gra'val, Ruh'lis and Kiff fought off a Federation special ops soldier on a mission to kill them all: M'Benga.

Dak'rah's story was entirely untrue. From the Klingon perspective, he wasn't just a turncoat who killed his subordinates: he was a coward who fled from the battlefield as those very same subordinates fought off a Starfleet soldier. That's why he said he was ashamed of his cowardice.

However, what's even more damning is that from the Federation perspective he isn't really a Klingon general who saw the errors of his ways and killed his own men when they wouldn't follow his order to stop killing civvies: he never gave the order to stop. The only reason the killing stopped is because Dak'rah fled while M'Benga succeeded in killing the senior Klingon leadership.

There would be no Klingon witnesses to dispute Dak'rah's story: M'Benga killed them all. And it was most certainly not a war crime: he targetted only Klingon forces.

Chapel did not tamper with the knife: the d'k tahg had blood from Gra'val, Ruh'lis and Kiff on it because it was the knife used to kill them all. The only lie Chapel perpetuated is she let Chin-Riley and Pike believe the knife belonged to Dak'rah, when it reality we the viewers know it it belonged to M'Benga, because it still fits the commonly-believed narrative that Dak'rah killed his own men.

Seriously, you absolutely nailed it. Great summary.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by csnarpy

Seriously, you absolutely nailed it. Great summary.

I have seriously watched dissections of this episode by youtubers who didnt get half of that.

Take your 'Picard slow-clap' sir.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Locke

I have seriously watched dissections of this episode by youtubers who didnt get half of that.

Take your 'Picard slow-clap' sir.

Why would you do that? lol

[Locke]

Originally Posted by nik-

Why would you do that? lol

Because I enjoy it? I know there are things that I miss, so I like being able to dive more deeply into the show.