I like this thread because if you are like me and can filter out the personal shots and bickering, there's actually some good stuff to read here. Keep it up, those of you who are actually contributing interesting tidbits.
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regarding the crashed vehicles, we just don't know enough at this point to be able to say why or how. I too believe that its a little hard to swallow that they've mastered interstellar travel yet struggle with our atmosphere.
A few possibilities I can see:
1. There have been some that have been knocked out of the sky during nuclear testing. would explain their supposed interest in nuclear facilities.
2. The craft are disposable drones
3. The craft were left intentionally
4. There are just so many, perhaps hundreds/thousands per day that there are bound to be mechanical failures even in the smallest % of events.
5. They are terrestrial and didnt travel intersteller to begin with
6. Sometimes conscious beings (if that's what we are dealing with) just make mistakes.
I am sure there are many more reasons we could imagine that would answer why vehicles might be left behind. its fascinating
It’s also possible that interstellar travel isn’t actually a grand accomplishment for this supposed species while safely navigating Earth’s atmosphere is. It’s possible that our Earth-based technology is significantly ahead of what they’re capable of in terms of things that account for Earth’s atmosphere and rules, and safely approaching or maintaining a presence on Earth is completely out of their reach.
I think if aliens came here and saw a bunch of jabbering and war-like apes tinkering around with thermonuclear devices they'd have concerns. I guess it would depend on what is actually associated with inter-solar system travel. If humans are so far off it won't happen in 10s of thousands of years, they're not a threat. If the secret is a lucky guess away, as an alien I wouldn't be super happy with what I was seeing.
Along the same thought, Stephen Hawking, who was really into this sort of thing, warned that we should be careful about contacting aliens due to the strong possibility that they would also have human-like tendencies and aggressive behaviour.
Based on what we know about evolution of intelligence on Earth, and the likelihood that evolution would follow similar paths on other worlds, they could have a lot in common with us. It's believed by some evolutionary biologists that intelligence developed due to a natural selection pressure for predators needing to understand and predict prey behaviour, to explore new habitats due to the high energy needs of their biology, and eventually control their environment. Evolution selected for individuals that could plan, calculate, and use abstract thought. This led to more highly intelligent creatures benefiting from aggressive behavior.
Given the size of the universe, it is possible that there are numerous intelligent civilizations out there and perhaps intelligence would have developed along different pressures and aliens would not have human qualities and weaknesses, but it is also just as possible that some would have developed along similar paths. Maybe even more possible since we have at least one example to go by already.
What many people think are uniquely human qualities, and just adaptations that helped us survive, no different than developing the ability to think ahead and plan. Things like communication and cooperation offered survival advantages (as they do in most of the animal world on Earth). Those things led to the social structures, which led to the arts and tool making, and eventually that led to scientific advancement. Obviously intelligent aliens would have started off as primitive life forms like us and would have followed some evolutionary path to became an advanced civilization with numerous steps in between. It is human arrogance to think those steps in between that humans experienced are uniquely human qualities and not just evolutionary traits that would be common things to develop in any highly intelligent species because they offer survival advantages. Intelligence doesn't just fall into place with the purpose of being able to build telescopes and space crafts. There has to be some driving biological force behind it that would have made it beneficial for survival. Aliens would have had some underlying curiosity and drive for resources to get started at least. Maybe those qualities would be vestigial now and not their driving motivation now, but I don't think we could assume it wouldn't be either.
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Last edited by FlamesAddiction; 07-28-2023 at 11:37 AM.
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Along the same thought, Stephen Hawking, who was really into this sort of thing, warned that we should be careful about contacting aliens due to the strong possibility that they would also have human-like tendencies and aggressive behaviour.
Based on what we know about evolution of intelligence on Earth, and the likelihood that evolution would follow similar paths on other worlds, they could have a lot in common with us. It's believed by some evolutionary biologists that intelligence developed due to a natural selection pressure for predators needing to understand and predict prey behaviour, to explore new habitats due to the high energy needs of their biology, and eventually control their environment. Evolution selected for individuals that could plan and calculate. This led to more highly intelligent creatures benefiting from aggressive behavior.
Given the size of the universe, it is possible that there are numerous intelligent civilizations out there and perhaps intelligence would have developed along different pressures and aliens would not have human qualities and weaknesses, but it is also just as possible that some would have developed along similar paths. Maybe even more possible since we have at least one example to go by already.
What many people think are uniquely human qualities, and just adaptations that helped us survive, no different than developing the ability to think ahead and plan. Things like communication and cooperative offered survival advantages (as they do in most of the animal world on Earth). Those things led to the social structures, which led to the arts and tool making, and eventually that led to scientific advancement. Obviously intelligent aliens would have started off as primitive life forms like us and would have followed some evolutionary path to became an advanced civilization with numerous steps in between. It is human arrogance to think those steps in between that humans experienced are uniquely human qualities and not just an evolutionary trait that would be a common thing to develop in any highly intelligent species because it offers a survival advantage. Intelligence doesn't just fall into place with the purpose of being able to build telescopes and space crafts. There has to be some driving biological force behind it that would have made beneficial for survival. Aliens would have had some underlying curiosity and drive fore resources to get started at least. Maybe those qualities would be vestigial now and not their driving motivation now, but I don't think we could assume they wouldn't be either.
Humans are also capable of compassion, and we do go to lengths to preserve life on our own planet. I'd assume with vastly superior technology resource scarcity would be less of a thing. If we developed space travel and ran into some intelligent species, I doubt humans would just wipe them out for the sake of it or merely to have another planet to expand onto. There are a lot of planets out there, and I'm guessing only a small portion of the habitable ones actually have intelligent inhabitants. With high end technology, you'd be able to settle a lot otherwise uninhabitable planets too. For example, terraforming and then colonizing Mars doesn't seem impossible.
An alien species could also look at us and see us clearly in the "resource scarcity" stage of development. Once we figure out a way to get unlimited and cheap energy, things should theoretically change for us.
Like I said before, if we are very close to inter-solar system travel, and we are acting the way we are, aliens should be pretty concerned though.
regarding the crashed vehicles, we just don't know enough at this point to be able to say why or how. I too believe that its a little hard to swallow that they've mastered interstellar travel yet struggle with our atmosphere.
A few possibilities I can see:
1. There have been some that have been knocked out of the sky during nuclear testing. would explain their supposed interest in nuclear facilities.
2. The craft are disposable drones
3. The craft were left intentionally
4. There are just so many, perhaps hundreds/thousands per day that there are bound to be mechanical failures even in the smallest % of events.
5. They are terrestrial and didnt travel intersteller to begin with
6. Sometimes conscious beings (if that's what we are dealing with) just make mistakes.
I am sure there are many more reasons we could imagine that would answer why vehicles might be left behind. its fascinating
My assumption would be that interstellar travel requires some kind of greater understanding of the fabric of reality. It's more than just propelling an object really fast. You'd have to alter the quantum fields that compose reality. Whether that's through a bridge, wormhole, warp drives, bending time/space, etc...
The ability to do that may not be too far off from the ability to create massive disruptions in time and space that could destroy entire galaxies. Tinkering around with atomic explosions is probably a small step on the way to that technology, as it requires some understanding of sub-atomic particles and fields.
If I was, even a benevolent alien, I'd be watching any species dabbling in that area very closely. They'd probably want regular surveys of our atomic facilities.
And yes, even with insanely advanced technology, I do think alien aircraft would run into errors, struggle with unforeseen weather issues, be subject to some kind of user errors, etc...so a ship, it if managed to get here, crashing into Earth wouldn't be outside of the realm of possibilities.
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I like this thread because if you are like me and can filter out the personal shots and bickering, there's actually some good stuff to read here. Keep it up, those of you who are actually contributing interesting tidbits.
One of the more interesting topics on this forum in some time, let alone the crazy broadcast a few days ago. But as usual, all The Bickersons show up to ruin the fun. Haven't gone down the UFO/Alien rabbithole in a while, so otherwise this is great fun to follow.
Some of you need to consider the possibility they didn't come from billions of miles away. There's an equally possible chance they've been here, right on earth, for a long time. Cryptoterrestrials, ultraterrestrials and temporal terrestrials are all equally valid until we know more about what the phenomenon is.
And they're still struggling with lightning so we shouldn't be too worried about them being a risk to humanity.
What many people think are uniquely human qualities, and just adaptations that helped us survive, no different than developing the ability to think ahead and plan. Things like communication and cooperative offered survival advantages (as they do in most of the animal world on Earth). Those things led to the social structures, which led to the arts and tool making, and eventually that led to scientific advancement. Obviously intelligent aliens would have started off as primitive life forms like us and would have followed some evolutionary path to became an advanced civilization with numerous steps in between. It is human arrogance to think those steps in between that humans experienced are uniquely human qualities and not just evolutionary traits that would be common things to develop in any highly intelligent species because they offer survival advantages.
Isn’t it equally a case of human arrogance to assume that our version of “intelligence” or the qualities we place high value on hold any value across all of time and space? That our trajectory as a species is even remotely close to the trajectory other “intelligent” species would follow?
Why do we presume that alien life has similar survival challenges, similar environments, and similar evolutionary paths to the point where we would even recognize their advancements, or they would recognize ours?
It’s entirely possible that our species’ limited ability to travel in space is a gift, as if we could, there’d be nothing an alien species could do to stop us. Would they even recognize aggression? Would they have had any need at all to understand or develop the means of destroying anything else?
Isn’t it equally a case of human arrogance to assume that our version of “intelligence” or the qualities we place high value on hold any value across all of time and space? That our trajectory as a species is even remotely close to the trajectory other “intelligent” species would follow?
Why do we presume that alien life has similar survival challenges, similar environments, and similar evolutionary paths to the point where we would even recognize their advancements, or they would recognize ours?
It’s entirely possible that our species’ limited ability to travel in space is a gift, as if we could, there’d be nothing an alien species could do to stop us. Would they even recognize aggression? Would they have had any need at all to understand or develop the means of destroying anything else?
I don't think we can assume they would be relatable to us, but we can't assume that they wouldn't be.
Evolution is pretty simple at its core. It's just just a collection of attributes that allows a population to survive in the physical world, and the physical world has pretty defined features that apply universally. A simple example is that a high energy organism (so not a plant-like or fungi-like organism) needs mobility in the environment from which it can draw energy. This means needing a method of mobility. There are only so many ways a creature can move in a physical environment (though liquids/swimming, through air/flight, or on land/walking, burrowing, slithering, etc..). Already, there are going to be some similarities in the evolutionary drivers. The downside of this of course is that finding more energy requires more energy, for which aggression and intelligence became adaptive solutions
Then when you consider a species that can build large complex structures, there is almost certainly going to need to be an ability to communicate and social cooperation, and likely a moral or social contract of some kind (hard to have mass cooperation without one). Based on numerous examples we have on Earth among organisms that evolved in isolation from each other, these are things seem to pop up naturally and independently over and over.
We also can't assume that even if they are way more advanced than us, that they won't be able to relate to us. Humans are way more technologically advanced than dogs, rats or even some birds, but we can still relate to their emotions (they get happy, sad, jealous, distressed, and lonely). We can relate and empathize with these animals even though we have advances in knowledge that they could never comprehend. Every complex animal species that evolved on Earth has some degree of heightened emotions despite having very different evolutionary paths. We shouldn't assume that the same social and emotional adaptations wouldn't apply elsewhere, just as with physical attributes like fins to swim though water, or wings to move through air (again, things that evolved several times independently of each other). They are after all just simple structures and adaptations for survival in a physical world. Humans shouldn't assume they are special or unique to have social structure and emotions, any more than they should fell special to be able to walk or hear sound.
But for sure, we can't assume anything. Aliens could be be so unrelatable to us that they wouldn't have any interest in us, or they could have evolved under very similar environmental pressures with similar results to Earth. We know for sure one way that intelligent life evolved and the "human" qualities that came along with those adaptations, so the potential for it to occur elsewhere shouldn't be dismissed. Neither possibility should be discounted until we have a larger sample size. If convergent evolution on Earth can produce similar features (both physical and social) in organisms here, despite living in drastically different habitats, there is no reason to think that the same evolutionary principles wouldn't apply on other similar planets elsewhere. If the physical world is comparable, the adaptive solutions to that physical could easily be comparable as well.
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Last edited by FlamesAddiction; 07-28-2023 at 02:11 PM.
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And they're still struggling with lightning so we shouldn't be too worried about them being a risk to humanity.
Sure, like we're masters of our domain and can predict where lightning is going to hit, amiright? We're a greater risk to humanity with 300 people dying each year and suffering 4,000 injures a year from electrocution. Masters of the universe we are.
Last edited by Lanny_McDonald; 07-28-2023 at 02:44 PM.
Maybe highly advanced civilizations aren't as aggressive and warlike as we think. If that was the case, they'd never be able to get over their own internal struggles. A species that has a natural tendency to expand to the point it exhausts resources and needs to keep on expanding might not be able to develop to the point where they can create interstellar technologies.
Perhaps advanced aliens, via process of selection, are benevolent and see the inherent positives of allowing other intelligent species to develop: Diversity of thought, experience, technology, biology, etc...
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Of all the airplane flights in a year, how many of them crash due to being struck by lightning?
Great question. The FAA estimate is that for every 1,000 hours of flight a plane is struck by lightning. Small airframes are more likely to crash because they don't have the same protective features built into them. Commercial aircraft are now built like a Faraday cage after a number of crashes caused by lightning and flights are regulated to stay 20 nautical miles away from any cumulonimbus clouds. Small airframes are not constructed in the same way and are expected to follow the same procedures, but small aircraft can get overtaken by weather quickly. Lightning can cause damage to aerials, avionics, compasses, and puncture holes in the fuselage, radomes, and tail fins. Even though we have protective mechanisms in place we still see lightning strikes being a problem.
Now please continue to think that this single answer to our "interplanetary travel and atmosphere expert" as to why a UPA could possible crash is the only reason for such events, even when balanced out with numbers of our own failings under similar conditions of our own technology. It is always entertaining to watch the skeptics/cynics chase their own tails and deny the obvious.
So I guess I'm one of those downers that thinks nothing has been here. I don't believe nothing with mass can travel faster than light, which is the biggest barrier for interstellar travel IMO, but it got me thinking...
What if we created a warp drive and could travel faster than light? Is there orders of magnitude faster than light? Is it instantaneous? Can you see where you are going? How do you know where to stop or slow down because you are going faster than light? And this is just for galactic travel. What about intergalactic travel? You should be able travel galaxies going faster than light. What about the space expanding between the galaxies. Now you have to contend with that.
Another one is wormholes. Lets say we can create one. Where do you create it to? How do you know where the destination opening is? How can you make it open relative to where you are were you make it go where you want?
Last edited by ripTDR; 07-28-2023 at 05:02 PM.
Reason: clarifications and grammer
