Canadian Federal Politics Thread v5

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Azure

Nothing like a giant screw you to the west.

Its not even that which annoys me.

Canada is a heavily resource-based economy, where do these clowns think that the money they love to spend so much of comes from?

I'm not saying Oil & Gas is the only game in town or anything, but we need to sell what we have.

In the frenzied attempt to electrify and greenify everything all of that infrastructure has to come from somewhere. Wiring, Batteries, Ore and Rare Earth Metals...where do they think this stuff comes from? Magic?

This is what pisses me off, all of these levels of Government are trying frenetically to electrify everything for the sake of 'Saving Earth' which is all well and good, but how do they think this is all going to happen?

Its like they have no concept of sustainability or down-stream effects and it makes me feel like I want to clunk their heads together like a Three Stooges skit.

Its madness.

[Yoho]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1684161266116448257

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Locke

Its not even that which annoys me.



Canada is a heavily resource-based economy, where do these clowns think that the money they love to spend so much of comes from?



I'm not saying Oil & Gas is the only game in town or anything, but we need to sell what we have.



In the frenzied attempt to electrify and greenify everything all of that infrastructure has to come from somewhere. Wiring, Batteries, Ore and Rare Earth Metals...where do they think this stuff comes from? Magic?



This is what pisses me off, all of these levels of Government are trying frenetically to electrify everything for the sake of 'Saving Earth' which is all well and good, but how do they think this is all going to happen?



Its like they have no concept of sustainability or down-stream effects and it makes me feel like I want to clunk their heads together like a Three Stooges skit.



Its madness.

I'll start by saying I think Canada should sell it's oil as long as people want oil. Unilateral supply destruction in a global commodity doesn't decrease consumption, it just makes it more expensive. I also strongly believe Alberta has future gold mine with oil sands for producing what will be heavily sought after carbon products that are most easily made with bitumen

Having said that, I always see people suggest mining for minerals for batteries as somehow equal to or worse than oil and gas from an environmental and ecological perspective. It's simply not. You also can't recycle O&G or coal. Vehicle batteries are very recyclable and there's already way more recycling capacity than batteries available. Sustainable mineral mining and recycling is orders of magnitude (perhaps 100's of times) less impactful than today's O&G exploration and extraction with regards to land use and water consumption.

[belsarius]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

I'll start by saying I think Canada should sell it's oil as long as people want oil. Unilateral supply destruction in a global commodity doesn't decrease consumption, it just makes it more expensive. I also strongly believe Alberta has future gold mine with oil sands for producing what will be heavily sought after carbon products that are most easily

This is the entire premise behind taxing carbon.. making it more expensive than alternatives to drive market forces away from it.

So in the short term it won't reduce consumption, but in the medium to long term, the higher cost brought on by lower supply will drive innovation to move demand away from carbon intensive options.

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

I'll start by saying I think Canada should sell it's oil as long as people want oil. Unilateral supply destruction in a global commodity doesn't decrease consumption, it just makes it more expensive. I also strongly believe Alberta has future gold mine with oil sands for producing what will be heavily sought after carbon products that are most easily made with bitumen

Having said that, I always see people suggest mining for minerals for batteries as somehow equal to or worse than oil and gas from an environmental and ecological perspective. It's simply not. You also can't recycle O&G or coal. Vehicle batteries are very recyclable and there's already way more recycling capacity than batteries available. Sustainable mineral mining and recycling is orders of magnitude (perhaps 100's of times) less impactful than today's O&G exploration and extraction with regards to land use and water consumption.

also add in the human rights perspective, too.
Isn't most of the worlds colbalt in the Republic of Congo, and China has 80% of graphite?

besides, I thought reports from the ICCT found EV manufacturing requires more energy and produces more emissions than manufacturing a conventional car, because of the metal extraction processes required for batteries.

don't forget the smelting process of recycling lithium-ion and nickel-metal hydride batteries itself recovers only between 40 and 50 per cent of battery materials and itself produces greenhouse gases.

I could probably google for a while to educate myself, but I have a feeling you're overstating how little of an impact EV production has, especially the batteries.

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

I'll start by saying I think Canada should sell it's oil as long as people want oil. Unilateral supply destruction in a global commodity doesn't decrease consumption, it just makes it more expensive. I also strongly believe Alberta has future gold mine with oil sands for producing what will be heavily sought after carbon products that are most easily made with bitumen

Having said that, I always see people suggest mining for minerals for batteries as somehow equal to or worse than oil and gas from an environmental and ecological perspective. It's simply not. You also can't recycle O&G or coal. Vehicle batteries are very recyclable and there's already way more recycling capacity than batteries available. Sustainable mineral mining and recycling is orders of magnitude (perhaps 100's of times) less impactful than today's O&G exploration and extraction with regards to land use and water consumption.

I'd like to see some peer reviewed sources on this. Please don't quote that T&E report, there were so many holes poked through that.

Unfortunately right now, the inputs for batteries are just as bad as O&G. Lets look at lithium production for example:

1) Lithium is energy intensive to produce and many areas do not the the electrical grid to support mining currently. They rely on coal to power their operations.
2) Most mining requires open pits which takes huge land acreage which impacts ecosystems.
3) From a social perspective a lot of mining is being conducted in places like the Congo which has been utilizing child slavery. Many of these mines have terrible human rights records.
4) Water usage. The brine which they extract lithium from underground aquifers.
5) The recycling process is not environmentally friendly. It releases toxins, and uses massive amounts of energy.

These are just the ones off the top of my head. I hope the technology can improve and I agree that the recycling rates are exciting and I hope that they can continue to become more efficient at reusing inputs. But to say the impact is not as bad as the O&G industry ignores the fact that the world runs on O&G. If lithium and other renewable energy intensive metals and minerals extraction are going to completely replace O&G, that footprint will dwarf O&G. The main reason most O&G is happening subsurface, not in open pits.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Leondros

I'd like to see some peer reviewed sources on this. Please don't quote that T&E report, there were so many holes poked through that.

Unfortunately right now, the inputs for batteries are just as bad as O&G. Lets look at lithium production for example:

1) Lithium is energy intensive to produce and many areas do not the the electrical grid to support mining currently. They rely on coal to power their operations.
2) Most mining requires open pits which takes huge land acreage which impacts ecosystems.
3) From a social perspective a lot of mining is being conducted in places like the Congo which has been utilizing child slavery. Many of these mines have terrible human rights records.
4) Water usage. The brine which they extract lithium from underground aquifers.
5) The recycling process is not environmentally friendly. It releases toxins, and uses massive amounts of energy.

These are just the ones off the top of my head. I hope the technology can improve and I agree that the recycling rates are exciting and I hope that they can continue to become more efficient at reusing inputs. But to say the impact is not as bad as the O&G industry ignores the fact that the world runs on O&G. If lithium and other renewable energy intensive metals and minerals extraction are going to completely replace O&G, that footprint will dwarf O&G. The main reason most O&G is happening subsurface, not in open pits.

FYI, Canada to the rescue.

One company championing sustainable lithium development is Canadian lithium resource and technology specialist E3 Lithium. For over five years, E3 Lithium has focused its efforts on designing and delivering its own Direct Lithium Extraction (DLE) technology with the aim of producing lithium with low carbon emissions, utilising very little land and consuming minimal freshwater. The DLE ion-exchange technology quickly and efficiently reduces large volumes of low-grade brine into a high-grade lithium concentrate in one step, simultaneously removing nearly all impurities. This produces a very clean product for the development of high purity lithium compounds used in lithium-ion (Li-ion) batteries.

https://www.innovationnewsnetwork.co...raction/24600/

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by GordonBlue

also add in the human rights perspective, too.

Isn't most of the worlds colbalt in the Republic of Congo, and China has 80% of graphite?

1) Most current EV batteries no longer use cobalt as chemistries have changed, and the amount used is decreasing fast. Cobalt is also used in oil refining and other industrial processes
2) Most EV companies actively buy cobalt that is from ethical sources and investigate their supply chains. Other industries including oil refining are not
3) Oil and Gas industries in many countries are using slave labor and child labour as well. This is an issue in all mineral extraction industries.

besides, I thought reports from the ICCT found EV manufacturing requires more energy and produces more emissions than manufacturing a conventional car, because of the metal extraction processes required for batteries.

Yes, but even in the dirtiest grids the CO2 emissions become lower very quickly after a few thousand miles.

https://climate.mit.edu/ask-mit/are-...s-powered-cars



[Quote]don't forget the smelting process of recycling lithium-ion and nickel-metal hydride batteries itself recovers only between 40 and 50 per cent of battery materials and itself produces greenhouse gases.[quote/]

Vehicles don't used nickel-metal hydride batteries. As for ev batteries, the largest battery recycler gets 95+% back

https://eepower.com/news/redwood-mat...ning%20process.

I could probably google for a while to educate myself, but I have a feeling you're overstating how little of an impact EV production has, especially the batteries.

There's certainly an impact on mineral extraction, but there's a certain blindness to the extent of o&g impact. Land use for oil and gas is huge. The amount of "stuff" we mine for the fuels we burn is enormous and the mineral extraction for batteries will be much smaller. As for getting water disruption and chemical pollution, it's again ignored that oil and gas as well as coal do the same thing. Suggesting that Lithium mining is more harmful than oil for example misses tons of context with regards to what type and where, as well as emerging Lithium supply and extraction technology.

[Leondros]

They are working on it for sure - but speed and scalability will be a challenge. Not dissimilar to fossil fuels replacing coal in certain areas of the world.

I have a buddy over here doing the same thing:

https://www.summitnanotech.com/our-mission

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Oil and Gas industries in many countries are using slave labor and child labour as well. This is an issue in all mineral extraction industries.

Source please, I work international oil and gas with experience in Africa and the Middle East and have not heard or seen this. In fact, given the technical requirements of drilling wells it is hard to believe slave/child labor would be utilized. We usually end up bringing in foreign workers (Syria, China, etc.) because the local population does not have the technical skills to pull off drilling or operate the assets.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Leondros

I'd like to see some peer reviewed sources on this. Please don't quote that T&E report, there were so many holes poked through that.

Unfortunately right now, the inputs for batteries are just as bad as O&G. Lets look at lithium production for example:

1) Lithium is energy intensive to produce and many areas do not the the electrical grid to support mining currently. They rely on coal to power their operations.

Lithium extraction has several different methods depending on the source and the energy use and mix is different depending on where it's extracted. Australia accounts for over 50% of the global lithium supply and it's produced from hard rock, not brine pits and it's energy mix is very rapidly becoming less reliant on coal. On the other hand brine pits use very little electricity as they use the sun to evaporate the water in order to concentrate the brine. Refining is often done in China which does use coal based power. It's difficult to compare energy intensity with O&G as fossil fuels are consumed to produce energy and Lithium stores energy and is recycled. There's no studies comparing directly because they're apples vs oranges. However, again, total life cycle emissions for an electric vehicle produced and driven with a dirty grid are still lower than a comparable ICE vehicle.

2) Most mining requires open pits which takes huge land acreage which impacts ecosystems.

Again, hard to do apples to apples here, but we're talking about extracting minerals for energy carrying energy for a very long time vs O&G which are consumed and instantly gone once used. If you took all the current lithium, rate earths, cobalt, and copper and times it by 12, it's still only 3% of the coal mined in one year. The amount of land used for fossil fuel extraction is massive.

3) From a social perspective a lot of mining is being conducted in places like the Congo which has been utilizing child slavery. Many of these mines have terrible human rights records.

Cobalt is really the only battery mineral from Congo, but if course all industries should be held to ethical standards. This example is silly for this dev debate of course because it's an issue with oil and gas to a much bigger extent currently than battery mineral supply

I discussed above, but yes some Lithium extraction uses water but I think you have things mixed up. Lithium extracted from aquifers doesn't deplete aquifers because the water is pumped back after Lithium extraction. Where water use in brine is an issue is I'm South America where they extract lithium from naturally occuring dry sea needs they pump local water resources on to in order to extract the lithium. These are often in areas where there's already water scarcity. And while that's an issue, I could also paint all oil and gas production then as using lots of water because of the oil sands use of the Athabasca. It's very complex and requires deeper investigation. I'm not sure you're speaking from a position of knowledge here

As compared to what? It's less energy intensive and releases less toxins than any oil and gas extraction nevermind the original mineral extraction. I'm not sure what your point is here. Outside of wiping humans of the earth everything we do is going to have some impact. It's minimizing the impact that's important

These are just the ones off the top of my head. I hope the technology can improve and I agree that the recycling rates are exciting and I hope that they can continue to become more efficient at reusing inputs. But to say the impact is not as bad as the O&G industry ignores the fact that the world runs on O&G. If lithium and other renewable energy intensive metals and minerals extraction are going to completely replace O&G, that footprint will dwarf O&G. The main reason most O&G is happening subsurface, not in open pits.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Leondros

Source please, I work international oil and gas with experience in Africa and the Middle East and have not heard or seen this. In fact, given the technical requirements of drilling wells it is hard to believe slave/child labor would be utilized. We usually end up bringing in foreign workers (Syria, China, etc.) because the local population does not have the technical skills to pull off drilling or operate the assets.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/j54d...of-child-labor


Edit:


I shouldn't have said "many" with regards to child labour. What I meant was human rights issues including slave labour and child labour with O&G are relevant in many countries.

https://www.unepfi.org/humanrightstoolkit/oil.php

[Spurs]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

https://www.vice.com/en/article/j54d...of-child-labor


Edit:


I shouldn't have said "many" with regards to child labour. What I meant was human rights issues with O&G are relevant in many countries

Is that an example of problems in the Oil and Gas industry or Syria is an awful place right now?

Doesn't mean there aren't issues in Oil and Gas but that article seems to me to be more of a condemnation of what is going on in Syria than anything else.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Spurs

Is that an example of problems in the Oil and Gas industry or Syria is an awful place right now?



Doesn't mean there aren't issues in Oil and Gas but that article seems to me to be more of a condemnation of what is going on in Syria than anything else.

Exactly!!!!


Is child labour used in artisanal cobalt mining an EV is worse than oil and gas problem or a global issue that isn't specific to EV battery production?

[Spurs]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Exactly!!!!


Is child labour used in artisanal cobalt mining an EV is worse than oil and gas problem or a global issue that isn't specific to EV battery production?

I am no expert in artisanal cobalt mining but it does seem like child labour is much more widespread in mining operations than this case of child labor in Oil and Gas that is occurring in one country with no laws/rule/control.

So yes it is worse, likely much worse.

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

I discussed above, but yes some Lithium extraction uses water but I think you have things mixed up. Lithium extracted from aquifers doesn't deplete aquifers because the water is pumped back after Lithium extraction. Where water use in brine is an issue is I'm South America where they extract lithium from naturally occuring dry sea needs they pump local water resources on to in order to extract the lithium. These are often in areas where there's already water scarcity. And while that's an issue, I could also paint all oil and gas production then as using lots of water because of the oil sands use of the Athabasca. It's very complex and requires deeper investigation. I'm not sure you're speaking from a position of knowledge here

I don't want to turn this into another green energy or O&G thread but won't let this one go. Oilsand extraction through mining accounts for roughly 2% of the worlds daily supply of oil. Chile accounts for 25% of total lithium production, most of which is brine and most of which requires underground water which as you astutely pointed out, evaporates, depleting ungerground water. You should read the following paper on what that means, even if its non-potable water: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-17581-y

I feel I am decently well informed on the topic and given a fair amount of time looking into this exact topic in my career being part of different extractive industries for over a decade.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Spurs

I am no expert in artisanal cobalt mining but it does seem like child labour is much more widespread in mining operations than this case of child labor in Oil and Gas that is occurring in one country with no laws/rule/control.

So yes it is worse, likely much worse.

Artisanal mining with child labour is happening in one country with no rules too. It's not an EV battery issue. This is my point

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Leondros

I don't want to turn this into another green energy or O&G thread but won't let this one go. Oilsand extraction through mining accounts for roughly 2% of the worlds daily supply of oil. Chile accounts for 25% of total lithium production, most of which is brine and most of which requires underground water which as you astutely pointed out, evaporates, depleting ungerground water. You should read the following paper on what that means, even if its non-potable water: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-17581-y



I feel I am decently well informed on the topic and given a fair amount of time looking into this exact topic in my career being part of different extractive industries for over a decade.

I agree with you on the water concerns of Lithium brine extraction, but fracking uses enormous amounts of water for a resource that's permanently consumed once used, it's not just oil sands. My point is we all brush one side with a certain color but completely ignore the other.

We're getting further and further away from the initial point that switching to EVs is going to have much worse environmental impact. Granular issues could be argued about forever but this is a Political thread and I'm veering this thread off topic

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Yoho

https://twitter.com/user/status/1684161266116448257

I see what you're trying to get at, but to me the housing issue is next to impossible for a government. It's basically

"we should really do something about the cost of housing and make things more affordable"

"great idea! So, you're cool with the value of your place dropping by ~20-30%?"

It's just a non-starter for current homeowners, for pretty obvious reasons.

[Wormius]

To be fair, if I am planning on staying put, the value of my house could go to zero. The only negative would be trying to borrow against your house.