[Rumour] Chris Johnston: Lindholm is interested in staying

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

Monahan got injured though and that is why he wasn't worth his deal. He also was not an old player who got injrued. Mid 20s and his career fell apart.

Lindholm isn't a top 5 center, but he is around top 10. I find it funny that anyone can just state he is 17th best in the league. Every good year or bad year a player has the list changes drastically. The Flames had nobody that was top 50 players in the league the year before Tkachuk, Gaudreau and Lindholm tore up the league. The next year these guys were all around top 20.

Once you get through McDavid, MacKinnon, Matthews, Draisaitl, Barkov, Crosby, Stamkos, Zibanajed, Point you are leaving a lot of centers behind Lindholm. In order for him to be 10th he would have to be better than

Hughes, Pettersson, Scheifele, Eichel, Aho, Malkin, Tavares, Miller, Pavelski, Nugent Hopkins, Thompson, Hischier, Kopitar, Barzal, Bergeron. Not sure he is actually better than all 15 of those guys.

For me I would take Hughes, Pettersson, Eichel, Aho, Tavares and Thompson for sure over Lindholm. For my list that would put him 16 at the highest. You could make an argument for others on that list too (as well as for Bedard). 16-22 in the league seems fair to me, top 10 seems way too high.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Once you get through McDavid, MacKinnon, Matthews, Draisaitl, Barkov, Crosby, Stamkos, Zibanajed, Point you are leaving a lot of centers behind Lindholm. In order for him to be 10th he would have to be better than

Hughes, Pettersson, Scheifele, Eichel, Aho, Malkin, Tavares, Miller, Pavelski, Nugent Hopkins, Thompson, Hischier, Kopitar, Barzal, Bergeron. Not sure he is actually better than all 15 of those guys.

For me I would take Hughes, Pettersson, Eichel, Aho, Tavares and Thompson for sure over Lindholm. For my list that would put him 16 at the highest. You could make an argument for others on that list too (as well as for Bedard). 16-22 in the league seems fair to me, top 10 seems way too high.

I'm not saying he isn't the 17th best center, but if I made a list it would just be my opinion on who ranks where.

I also feel like you are using last year only as to who is better. Nuge? Tavares? Thompson? Malkin? Pettersen? Barzal? Hischier? Some of these guys are young and had break out years but some of these guys were down on the list before last season.

I like Point and I put him ahead of Lindholm but he does play with some elite players and Kucherov is the best player on that line. Nuge got 100 playing on the PP with McDavid. Is he really that good? Tavares is good but is he really that much better than Lindholm?

I like to put guys in tiers, Lindholm is definitely not in tier 1 with guys like McDavid, Mackinnon, Matthews, Draisaitl and Barkov type players. He might be outside tier 2 with guys like Point, Crosby, Hughes, Zib, Kopitar, Bergeron or whoever people put in this group. But really how far off is he of these players in tier 2?

Even if you rank him behind Malkin, Pettersen, Barzal, Hughes and so on. Lindholm played on a team that was a mess last year, didn't click with Huberdeau but Huberdeau didn't click with anyone really. Lindholm still managed to have a very good season with Toffoli (most were down on him going into last year too). You could make a case that signing Lindholm now is a great buy low option as he had a down year and it could have been more to do with most the team being down and a coach nobody liked than he actually being overrated like so many are suggesting

[Redrum]

I wonder where he'll be on the list by the time the new contract starts, never mind half way through.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

I'm not saying he isn't the 17th best center, but if I made a list it would just be my opinion on who ranks where.

I also feel like you are using last year only as to who is better. Nuge? Tavares? Thompson? Malkin? Pettersen? Barzal? Hischier? Some of these guys are young and had break out years but some of these guys were down on the list before last season.

I like Point and I put him ahead of Lindholm but he does play with some elite players and Kucherov is the best player on that line. Nuge got 100 playing on the PP with McDavid. Is he really that good? Tavares is good but is he really that much better than Lindholm?

I like to put guys in tiers, Lindholm is definitely not in tier 1 with guys like McDavid, Mackinnon, Matthews, Draisaitl and Barkov type players. He might be outside tier 2 with guys like Point, Crosby, Hughes, Zib, Kopitar, Bergeron or whoever people put in this group. But really how far off is he of these players in tier 2?

Even if you rank him behind Malkin, Pettersen, Barzal, Hughes and so on. Lindholm played on a team that was a mess last year, didn't click with Huberdeau but Huberdeau didn't click with anyone really. Lindholm still managed to have a very good season with Toffoli (most were down on him going into last year too). You could make a case that signing Lindholm now is a great buy low option as he had a down year and it could have been more to do with most the team being down and a coach nobody liked than he actually being overrated like so many are suggesting

He is 20th in PPG over the past three seasons and he played two of those seasons with Gaudreau and Tkachuk. He is 15th in total points over the past three years. It is pretty difficult to put him in the top 10 based on past performance let alone future performance. Lots of players have one season out of three where things go wrong but I would suggest a 3 year average is a decent indicator of where someone is offensively.

3 of the last 4 seasons he has been a 63-68 point center. The one year as a center he was better than that he was the lowest scorer on his line, finishing well behind the line drivers. There are just way too many centers that you can expect to score 80+ points each year to have a 65 point center in the top 10 IMO.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

He is 20th in PPG over the past three seasons and he played two of those seasons with Gaudreau and Tkachuk. He is 15th in total points over the past three years. It is pretty difficult to put him in the top 10 based on past performance let alone future performance. Lots of players have one season out of three where things go wrong but I would suggest a 3 year average is a decent indicator of where someone is offensively.

3 of the last 4 seasons he has been a 63-68 point center. The one year as a center he was better than that he was the lowest scorer on his line, finishing well behind the line drivers. There are just way too many centers that you can expect to score 80+ points each year to have a 65 point center in the top 10 IMO.

But he’s in the mix with the top 10 guys. Even if he’s ranked 17th what’s the difference? Opinions change drastically every year. Over reactions to the guys who had great years. Last summer if it was contract time for Lindholm he likely gets $9.5 mil. Year later $1 mil less due to lessor year. He’s a buy low guy imo

Hanifin was sell high last year and so many thought it was dumb to suggest it. You can make a case his value all time low now and he wants a trade. Good GMs find ways to figure out who is and isn’t worth their new deal and Lindholm is no question at a low in his value right now. Clearly he is on here similar to toffolli last summer. Some of us were confident he would bounce back and he did with a career year

[Hackey]

Linholm has been a point per game player once in his career and that was the year Johnny and Tkachuk were both over 100pts. It makes me think he's a 60-70 pts player unless he's playing with a couple superstars. He cant drive a line on his own. Just doesn't seem like a top line center you build around. So rank him wherever you want but most Cup Champions have a center far superior and a lot of them even have a 2nd line center better or just as good. Just seems like a direct line to more mediocrity.

[MrMike]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Linholm has been a point per game player once in his career and that was the year Johnny and Tkachuk were both over 100pts. It makes me think he's a 60-70 pts player unless he's playing with a couple superstars. He cant drive a line on his own. Just doesn't seem like a top line center you build around. So rank him wherever you want but most Cup Champions have a center far superior and a lot of them even have a 2nd line center better or just as good. Just seems like a direct line to more mediocrity.

I agree, especially because it didn’t seem like Huberdeau and himself really clicked.

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Linholm has been a point per game player once in his career and that was the year Johnny and Tkachuk were both over 100pts. It makes me think he's a 60-70 pts player unless he's playing with a couple superstars. He cant drive a line on his own. Just doesn't seem like a top line center you build around. So rank him wherever you want but most Cup Champions have a center far superior and a lot of them even have a 2nd line center better or just as good. Just seems like a direct line to more mediocrity.

This. Apart from that one year where he really clicked with two all-stars in their prime, he was, and has been since the second they both split, a mediocre 2nd line player.

Like, I get why an organization with 30 years of sadness at his position would roll out the red carpet for him, even though it flies in the face of what any franchise with rebuild in their vocabulary would do. He's a big fish in a very small pond. But that doesn't stop the whole thing from being pathetic.

I really just hope he says "no, thank you" to any offer and requests a trade. Stop this organization from inflicting any more long-term mistakes on itself.

[PepsiFree]

Mediocre 2nd line player?

Don’t hold back on the hyperbole or anything. Might as well just go whole hog and call him a replacement-level grinder.

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Mediocre 2nd line player?

Don’t hold back on the hyperbole or anything. Might as well just go whole hog and call him a replacement-level grinder.

He did nothing worth remembering in Carolina, and as soon as his two all-star linemates bailed, went right back to being that same player. I said what I said. He only has room to get worse from here as he ages.

Sign him to the deal the Flames are offering, and he'll be every bit as reviled as Kadri, but with marginally better numbers. Neither will be worth what they earn.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

I'm not saying he isn't the 17th best center, but if I made a list it would just be my opinion on who ranks where.

I also feel like you are using last year only as to who is better. Nuge? Tavares? Thompson? Malkin? Pettersen? Barzal? Hischier? Some of these guys are young and had break out years but some of these guys were down on the list before last season.

I like Point and I put him ahead of Lindholm but he does play with some elite players and Kucherov is the best player on that line. Nuge got 100 playing on the PP with McDavid. Is he really that good? Tavares is good but is he really that much better than Lindholm?

I like to put guys in tiers, Lindholm is definitely not in tier 1 with guys like McDavid, Mackinnon, Matthews, Draisaitl and Barkov type players. He might be outside tier 2 with guys like Point, Crosby, Hughes, Zib, Kopitar, Bergeron or whoever people put in this group. But really how far off is he of these players in tier 2?

Even if you rank him behind Malkin, Pettersen, Barzal, Hughes and so on. Lindholm played on a team that was a mess last year, didn't click with Huberdeau but Huberdeau didn't click with anyone really. Lindholm still managed to have a very good season with Toffoli (most were down on him going into last year too). You could make a case that signing Lindholm now is a great buy low option as he had a down year and it could have been more to do with most the team being down and a coach nobody liked than he actually being overrated like so many are suggesting

Hughes had 100pts as a 21 years old. Petterson over 100pts last year. Zib over 90. Point over 90. Hischier 80pts from the 2nd line as a 2-way center. Thompson over 90. Lindholm isn't in that tier.

Maybe in tier 3 with Dubois, Kopitar, Schiefle, Larkin, Hintz, etc.

[Redrum]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Hughes had 100pts as a 21 years old. Petterson over 100pts last year. Zib over 90. Point over 90. Hischier 80pts from the 2nd line as a 2-way center. Thompson over 90. Lindholm isn't in that tier.

Maybe in tier 3 with Dubois, Kopitar, Schiefle, Larkin, Hintz, etc.

I was just thinking a lot of those guys are much younger and will likely be a lot better in short order. With our luck, after the contract is signed but before it even kicks in... for 8 years.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

He did nothing worth remembering in Carolina, and as soon as his two all-star linemates bailed, went right back to being that same player. I said what I said. He only has room to get worse from here as he ages.

Sign him to the deal the Flames are offering, and he'll be every bit as reviled as Kadri, but with marginally better numbers. Neither will be worth what they earn.

The same player as what? He had a rough end to the season but led the team in scoring through Feb 1 despite Gaudreau and Tkachuk being replaced by Dube and Toffoli lol. He also finished the season with the best faceoff % (and one of the best in the league) and solid numbers all the way down.

A generational center? No. But he’s a very good top line center. To even come close to the production you had with two all-stars playing with a career 2nd and 3rd liner is incredible, but somehow people think every player is McDavid and should just be able to run around and do it all by himself.

If Lindholm was that kind of player he’d be asking for $12M+

[2ArmBands]

Lindholm is not a top 10 Center in the league. But … the Flames will likely have to pay him as such in order to keep him and that’s why it sucks being a fan of a Canadian market team.

The only reason he is contemplating staying is because he knows it’s the biggest pay day. No contending team can afford to pay Lindholm first line Center money. Heck even crappy American markets probably aren’t willing to pay him and the result is sitting on uncertainty with him.

[dino7c]

There is more to hockey then points

Also, who would have scored 100 on the Flames last year with Sutter ice time?

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

The same player as what? He had a rough end to the season but led the team in scoring through Feb 1 despite Gaudreau and Tkachuk being replaced by Dube and Toffoli lol. He also finished the season with the best faceoff % (and one of the best in the league) and solid numbers all the way down.

A generational center? No. But he’s a very good top line center. To even come close to the production you had with two all-stars playing with a career 2nd and 3rd liner is incredible, but somehow people think every player is McDavid and should just be able to run around and do it all by himself.

If Lindholm was that kind of player he’d be asking for $12M+

Look man, I get where you're coming from. He's not a bad player (from 23-29), but he's not a great player (very likely not from 30-38). Right now, the Flames are offering the modern equivalent of Daymond Langkow an 8 year deal, on top of the massive contracts already handed out for players approaching albatross status. It's not rocket science to figure out why some people aren't ok with that.

[heep223]

He’s definitely better than Daymond Langkow don’t be silly. But the right move is still to trade him for futures if the right deal can be found. 1st rounder + A prospect

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

The same player as what? He had a rough end to the season but led the team in scoring through Feb 1 despite Gaudreau and Tkachuk being replaced by Dube and Toffoli lol. He also finished the season with the best faceoff % (and one of the best in the league) and solid numbers all the way down.

A generational center? No. But he’s a very good top line center. To even come close to the production you had with two all-stars playing with a career 2nd and 3rd liner is incredible, but somehow people think every player is McDavid and should just be able to run around and do it all by himself.

If Lindholm was that kind of player he’d be asking for $12M+

Tyler Toffoli was 43rd amongst all wingers in PPG over the past 3 seasons.

Toffoli averaged 0.80 PPG for 67 points every 82 games

Lindholm averaged 0.89 PPG for 73 points every 82 games.

One of those guys is not merely a 2nd liner while the other one is a very good first liner. One of those guys is about the 15-20th best center in the NHL and the other guy is somewhere between the 20th-25th best RW in the NHL. If Lindholm’s defensive game elevates him then surely Toffoli’s does too.

[Vinny01]

Lindholm has the second highest assist totals of his career last year he just wasn’t scoring as much. Johnny had bud big years when Lindholm was on his line the entire season otherwise he has been a 70ish point player. Toffoli and Dube have career years playing with Lindholm. I think he makes other players better.

I still think they should trade him but I don’t get why people are trying to run him down?

[Nelson]

Lindholm will be closer to 30 than 29 when this new 8-year deal starts. I also hope the team trades him.