Al Gore slams the tories' new environmental plan!

[The Unabomber]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Interestingly, this is the answer to the question you pose below;


Seems to me that the fact that he's doing something now makes him a lot 'better' than the thousands of wealthy/powerful politicians in the US doing nothing (which, I grant, he used to be). Dick Cheney is the VP now... why doesn't he do something?

Explain to me the change that Al Gore is making, is that the movie that you saw? Is that the change that you are speaking of? The last time i looked i saw ENCANA building the tallest skyscraper in Calgary, does that look like a company that has the environment on their mind? I see the ODD hybrid driving down the street which i'm sure more people would be driving if they weren't overpriced that the average working person couldn't afford one.

Yes, i see the change that he made while in the government and i see what he is doing now, little has changed as far as i can see.

Dick Cheney doesn't pose as an environmentalist/politician, that's the difference. A politician has the power to make change, the President of the US has the power to do what he wants, when he wants, we are witnessing that right now by the leader they have. Gore preaching about change and not running for president is laughable....if the president can't do anything to save the environment then who will?

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Azure

And just a few month ago, there were numerous articles saying of how NOTHING we could do, in the foreseeable future would fix this problem we have.

Remember Unabomber, when you are in the position Gore is in, you can afford to take one side of the issue and run with it. But when you're in office, you have to look at all sides of the issue, and make a decision.

Or just manufacture the intelligence to execute the agenda you have, no matter how many lies you have to tell to the American people. When you're Dick Cheney, you can just sneer at them and tell them to STFU, and get away with it.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by Azure

We all know that the current administration is a tad bit 'useless' when it comes to doing something, but the US HAS lowered their emissions more than Canada.

So... the current US Admin is useless... and they've done more than Canada has... so... the current Canadian Admin is even more useless?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

I agree with what you are saying, but you ahve to realize that for the most part, the Vice President has zero power while in office.

Sure, sure.

[The Unabomber]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Or just manufacture the intelligence to execute the agenda you have, no matter how many lies you have to tell to the American people. When you're Dick Cheney, you can just sneer at them and tell them to STFU, and get away with it.

Not trying to seem like a jerk or anything Lanny as you bring up good points, i don't follow the American government close enough to know it inside out.

It's obvious the government is controled by big business, the same big business does not want to start losing money because of some stupid global warming issue, so how do you people think that things are going to change? Does it revert back to the 60's of protests? Does it take something catastophic to employ a different way of thinking?

The reason i ask these questions is because i see a bunch of opinions on what needs to change and why and even how, but i really haven't seen anything on how we get from point A to point B without a massive problem, weather it be a problem from the oil and gas companies or a problem with laying off employees and a possible collapse of the economy for a short while.

Who does Al Gore need to speak to in order to get his point across? Is it holding luncheons for $1,000/seat so only the rich hear him and it's more of a prestige thing or does he need to talk to people like Bill Gates and get total buy-in from the big business and hope it spreads?

Like to see some opinions on this..

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

So... the current US Admin is useless... and they've done more than Canada has... so... the current Canadian Admin is even more useless?

Only the current one, or the previous one a well?

Harper has been in office around a year now...the Liberals were in power for 12 years.

You can't lower your emissions overnight and not expect the economy to go haywire.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by The Unabomber

Explain to me the change that Al Gore is making, is that the movie that you saw? Is that the change that you are speaking of?

I actually didn't mention the word 'change'... Al Gore cannot 'change' climactic shift, no single person can. Maybe he's 'changing' minds...

The last time i looked i saw ENCANA building the tallest skyscraper in Calgary, does that look like a company that has the environment on their mind?

Um... I guess not?

Yes, i see the change that he made while in the government and i see what he is doing now, little has changed as far as i can see.

Yep... and yet he's out there, telling people to change. The message is invalid because of who he is, not because of anything to do with the issue? I don't see how 'Al Gore has not saved the environment, so we shouldn't listen to what he has to say about it' works. Why not just address the issue of climate-change and ignore the monkey who's presenting it? Its not like this is Al Gore's theory; unlike the Internet, he didn't invent Climate Change.

Dick Cheney doesn't pose as an environmentalist/politician, that's the difference. A politician has the power to make change, the President of the US has the power to do what he wants, when he wants, we are witnessing that right now by the leader they have. Gore preaching about change and not running for president is laughable....if the president can't do anything to save the environment then who will?

Let me ask you this; is there a Global Warming problem without Al Gore? If he disappears, does the problem disappear too? If someone shoots Al tomorrow, will the temperature begin dropping?

Why is everyone talking about Al Gore rather than Global Warming? The two are not the same, like if you don't believe in one then the other doesn't exist either. They are separate entities.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by Azure

Only the current one, or the previous one a well?

Harper has been in office around a year now...the Liberals were in power for 12 years.

You can't lower your emissions overnight and not expect the economy to go haywire.

Sure, I'll agree with that... both the current and former administrations were/are incompetent on this issue to date.

I guess we'll wait and see how the Conservative plan plays out, who knows... maybe they'll at least get things moving in the right direction for a change.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by The Unabomber

Who does Al Gore need to speak to in order to get his point across? Is it holding luncheons for $1,000/seat so only the rich hear him and it's more of a prestige thing or does he need to talk to people like Bill Gates and get total buy-in from the big business and hope it spreads?

Like to see some opinions on this..

Gore needs to talk to everyone. He needs to create a groundroots movement and prove to the money men that the public is looking for products/solutions they can provide. Sadly, without the potential to make money, the money men are not going to lineup to do the right thing. I think Gore is doing a decent job at this. He has to chip away at the estabishment and slowly get people to come around. Those that are in seats of power are not going to do much to risk those seats. Until the people come knocking on the door, and pull a Marie Antoinette, will you see the ruling class pay heed to the wishes of the peasants. IMO, all its going to take is one success story by a startup, and the house of cards comes crashing down. If Tesla or Zap can produce a successful vehile that establishes a solid market share, the established car companies will panic and follow. That is the begining of the end to our current beliefs and the begining of a new way of treating our planet. Great changes start with great ideas, but happen with one conversion at a time. Watch "Who Killed the Electric Car" to see what I mean.

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

So is this really possible? Yes, and here’s a rundown of the technologies that can bring this “idea” (oh, ideas are just so evil to some people) to life.

The Electric Car

This is the sexiest of the bunch. Yes indeedy, it is expensive, but the proof of concept always is. Tesla has already sold out their first production run and is close to selling out their second production run, which they haven’t even started! Demand is there already!!! Tesla is already working on their five person sedan model and hope to have it on the road for 2010.

http://www.teslamotors.com/index.php?js_enabled=1

There are other options available, and more coming each day.

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/01...ith-batteries/

Here's a crossover SUV that is ready to go. The minute I can find a North American distributor I will plunk down my cash on this baby (if Tesla or GM doesn’t beat them to the NA market).

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/02...or-the-most-pa

And from the guys who “killed the electric car” in the first place, here they are jumping back into the mix with a very cool looking prototype.

http://www.chevrolet.com/electriccar/

Okay, so the transportation angle for the average Joe is covered, but what about power generation? How can we really move to an electric standard for all of our power needs?

Biomass Power Generation

Biomass is great because it is just lying around doing nothing, and it is renewable. That's right, its the waste from grass clippings, from the chaff in farmers fields, from the highly flammable waste products that trees create in the forests and lead to forest fires, from the waste generated in lumber and paper production, and from animal wastes in our beef and dairy industries. The only costs associated with it are the collection, but that is nothing more than a change in practice. Most of this stuff is already collected but sent off to landfill to rot.

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/biomass/...cal_power.html

http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/analysispaper/biomass/

This report proves that HOZ could be an endless supplier of power to the world. The bullcrap produced by HOZ could be used by this plant to power his community.

http://biomass.ucdavis.edu/pages/rep...ssessment.html

Closely related is Bio Gas. This is a great technology that takes advantage of our wasteful ways. Bio Gas technology collects the naturally occurring methane produced in landfills and uses that as fuel to generate electricity.

http://www.biogastech.com/

Coal Power Generation

This is very interesting technology, especially to Albertans who have massive coal deposits to exploit. Interestingly, Montana is a leader and key proponent to this technology. Coal has long been considered a big time problem for pollutants, but new technologies have been developed, and new storage proposals for wastes, have made coal a very promising fuel in electric power generation. The use of green technology in coal power generation is explained fully in this document.

http://www.rrc.state.tx.us/commissio...t_3-3-05cc.pdf

The technology in action

http://www.netl.doe.gov/publications.../tl_tampa.html

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/st...00645377&EDATE=

Here's a lawsuit just recently settled that forces this technology into action against one of the biggest creators of acid rain in Wisconsin.

http://www.epa.gov/compliance/resour...a/wepco-fs.pdf

Is this really true? Are these electric options "cleaner" than what we presently do? Don't you just transfer the polutants from tailpipe to smoke stack? No, and here's the math behind it.

http://drivingthefuture.com/97pct.htm

Nuclear Power

This technology has been around for years, and it is only getting better. Clean and safe, nuclear power only has to overcome the stigma associated with past accidents at Three Mile Island and Chernobyl. Interesting to note is the information contained that outlines the power output versus pollutant output.

http://web.mit.edu/nuclearpower/

An interesting doc outlining cost savings.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/nuclear...learpower.html

Solar Power

Soalr power is a technology that everyone can use. If you have a roof pointing south, you have the ability to have a function solar array that can come close to meeting your home power needs. If you have a large roof, capable of handling a multi-panel array, you can exceed your needs and sell the extra power back onto the grid.

http://www.solarharvest.org/

http://www.sunwize.com/index.htm?utm...e+Technologies

http://www.solarelectricpower.org/

Prairie Grass Ethanol

This is a potential Genie in the bottle for North America. This is a native grass that grows almost anywhere, and stores vast amounts of energy. It requires no watering infrastructure and is exceptionally hardy, being able to withstand heat, cold, wet and dry conditions. Even during the dust bowl of the great depression this native grass thrived. At present, the major problem with this fuel source is cost to produce energy, but as with any technology, the more it is implemented and used, the cheaper it becomes.

http://wcco.com/local/local_story_022224523.html

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...53&ft=1&f=1019

Cane Sugar Ethanol

This is the technology that has made Brazil, a developing nation, energy self sufficient.

http://www.boston.com/business/artic...hanol_profits/

http://www.tifac.org.in/do/sug/case/economics.htm

Tidal Wave Power

Not a solution for all parts of the world, but coastal communities can supplement their power needs with this quickly developing technology.

http://www.fujitaresearch.com/reports/tidalpower.html

Wind Power

Another power source that we could use to harness the power of HOZ. Just let him stand in front of a bank of these giant windmills and watch the megawatts flow! Seriously, for anyone who has lived in, or visited, the Crowsnest Pass or the Lethbridge area, you know just how much power there could be harnessed from the wind. These large windmills can be erected anywhere and used to supplement the power on the community grid.

http://www.windenergy.com/index_wind.htm

http://www.natwindpower.co.uk/homepage/index.asp

Here are average Joes doing their part using Wind Power.

http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_wind.html

Bio Diesel

As I mentioned earlier, I work with a fellow already using this technology to his advantage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bio_fuel

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

As always Lanny I wonder if you have a job at all considering the amount of time you can google info.

But again Lanny, great ideas! You're a real Idea factory...Let the real thinking and implementation to others why don't we? It is hardly snapping your fingers and yelling "Make it so number one!" In fact, I dare you to run for office on the premise of building a nuclear generator near anyone!

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by The Unabomber

It's obvious the government is controled by big business, the same big business does not want to start losing money because of some stupid global warming issue, so how do you people think that things are going to change? Does it revert back to the 60's of protests? Does it take something catastophic to employ a different way of thinking?

The reason i ask these questions is because i see a bunch of opinions on what needs to change and why and even how, but i really haven't seen anything on how we get from point A to point B without a massive problem, weather it be a problem from the oil and gas companies or a problem with laying off employees and a possible collapse of the economy for a short while.

Who does Al Gore need to speak to in order to get his point across? Is it holding luncheons for $1,000/seat so only the rich hear him and it's more of a prestige thing or does he need to talk to people like Bill Gates and get total buy-in from the big business and hope it spreads?

Like to see some opinions on this..

Agreed. Like I have said their is plenty of "Idea factories" people and very few people considering the implementation of these ideas. It is easy to say we need to stop this and that. Much harder to do it.

As for Gore the man is a hypocrit in the biggest way. He lives in a mansion that costs 31000 dollars a month in electric bills. In my life time I will never ever be able to afford such home. Yet I am suppose to clean up my act?? The Goracle is a farce. He travels via his private jet, he travels in a cavalcade so big it makes traffic jams in LA look minute. But, but he pays carbon offsets!!!!!! To a company HE OWNS!

Gore talks for fools.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by HOZ

As always Lanny I wonder if you have a job at all considering the amount of time you can google info.

Really? Took me about half an hour to cobble that together.

But again Lanny, great ideas! You're a real Idea factory...Let the real thinking and implementation to others why don't we? It is hardly snapping your fingers and yelling "Make it so number one!" In fact, I dare you to run for office on the premise of building a nuclear generator near anyone!

Nice defeatest attitude. I would expect nothing less from you. That's the sweet part of electricity, it doesn't have to be generated right next door. The eastern seaboard is powered by Newfoundland and Quebec Hydro, hundreds (and even thousands) of miles away. Nuclear plants could very easily be built in rural Nevada, New Mexico, Utah and west Texas and power the western United States. There are such vast expanses of nothing in the United States that the excuse of NIMBY is no longer valid.

So what is your excuse for all the other sources of electric power? Why won't solar work? Why won't bio mass? How about wind? Why won't clean fossil fuel plants work? What are your excuses for these technologies? See, you like to make fun of people that have ideas, because they don't have the fiscal capabilities to make these things come to fruition. But you don't even have the ideas. The only thing you can do is weakly attempt to put down the ideas and say they won't work. You have no original thought, you have no ability to imagine what if, you only sit there in your dark dank little room and hurl your feces at who ever you can, trying to convince yourself that your have something to offer. If you don't have ideas, you don't have imagination, and you don't have the energy to work outside the box your place yourself in, what do you have to offer? Ideas can change the world, and all it takes is an idea to take root for that change to begin. So excuse me while I nail my 95 Theses on the door of the Castle Church.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by HOZ

As for Gore the man is a hypocrit in the biggest way. He lives in a mansion that costs 31000 dollars a month in electric bills. In my life time I will never ever be able to afford such home. Yet I am suppose to clean up my act?? The Goracle is a farce. He travels via his private jet, he travels in a cavalcade so big it makes traffic jams in LA look minute. But, but he pays carbon offsets!!!!!! To a company HE OWNS!

Pathetic. You can't even get your own numbers right.

http://www.tennesseepolicy.org/main/...article_id=367

What's funny is that the organization in question, The Tennessee Center of Policy Research, is an ultra-right wing group that reported the information incorrectly. What they forgot to mention (the Inconvienent Truth to tennesseepolicy.org) is that Gore purchased 108 blocks of "green power" from the Nashville Electric Service. That's a total of $432 a month EXTRA he paid for solar and other renewable power sources. Knock that off of the $1,359 and you have a month electric bill of $927 for a 10,000 square foot home. Do the math, that's pretty damn good.

http://www.tva.gov/greenpowerswitch/ Green Power

Something that The Tennessee Center of Policy Research also missed is that Gore is installing solar panels and uses lower power high efficiency bulbs and systems in his mansion, shrinking his carbon footprint as small as possible.

Gore talks for fools.

No, that would be The Tennessee Center of Policy Research who speaks for fools. And you talk out your ass. Try getting your information correct, or STFU once and for all.

[Shawnski]

Lanny, some of your statements are so far off the rocker it isn't even funny.

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

If oil was used to create electricity rather than running a combustion engine, the energy outout increases by a factor of 16,000.

Prove that one. As Lurch has already pointed out, your numbers don't jive. Not even close. If my 22 MPG car was electric, would I get 352,000 MPG if that gas was converted to electricity first? Obviously not.

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Wind Power
Another power source that we could use to harness the power of HOZ.

Sorry mate, as much as I don't agree, nor usually appreciate his/her posts (nor myk's), the blowhard that is best suited for wind power is yourself. Keep the rhetoric to a minimum and your posts will be more readable and in turn make more of an impact on the reader.

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

These large windmills can be erected anywhere...

Nope, not even close. There are very small areas in which a large scale windmill, let alone farm, can be deployed. Consistant high winds from a generally stable direction are paramount to being effective in harvesting that power. The energy cost to construct a windmill is quite high as well. How long before it is "paid off" in green energy (let alone maintaining it.)

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Geothermal Power

The earth is a very active place and generates unbelievable amounts of heat that is released into the atmosphere each day. This release of heat can easily be harnessed and converted into electrical power.

Again, total misinformation. Geothermal (of which I am a big supporter) has nothing to do with what you stated. On the contrary, it is the exact opposite. It is like the radiator in your vehicle. When it is cool out, you are warmed by the flow of "heat" from the ground several meters below the soil. But when it is hot out (hello Phoenix), the cool temps under the ground act as an air conditioner with the Earth cooled anti-freeze cycling through the buildings systems.

Lanny, these are just a few that stood out from skimming this thread. For someone that is so high on being analytical of situations like Iggy and the Flames, I would hope you could put more into your posts on this matter. I do value your opinions, but would hope not to see them evolve into a wooden bat vs aluminum bat travesty.

Side updates might include costs of ethanol and mercury in the new bulbs as food for thought.

Bring it, bring it hard. I encourage that. But bring it all man!!! Both sides as complete as possible. The most success I ever enjoyed in my business life was when I knew (and articulated) all sides of a debate, at all times. Answers became apparent so much easier that way.

My 1/10th of a cent... after taxes.

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Really? Took me about half an hour to cobble that together.



Nice defeatest attitude. I would expect nothing less from you. That's the sweet part of electricity, it doesn't have to be generated right next door. The eastern seaboard is powered by Newfoundland and Quebec Hydro, hundreds (and even thousands) of miles away. Nuclear plants could very easily be built in rural Nevada, New Mexico, Utah and west Texas and power the western United States. There are such vast expanses of nothing in the United States that the excuse of NIMBY is no longer valid.

So what is your excuse for all the other sources of electric power? Why won't solar work? Why won't bio mass? How about wind? Why won't clean fossil fuel plants work? What are your excuses for these technologies? See, you like to make fun of people that have ideas, because they don't have the fiscal capabilities to make these things come to fruition. But you don't even have the ideas. The only thing you can do is weakly attempt to put down the ideas and say they won't work. You have no original thought, you have no ability to imagine what if, you only sit there in your dark dank little room and hurl your feces at who ever you can, trying to convince yourself that your have something to offer. If you don't have ideas, you don't have imagination, and you don't have the energy to work outside the box your place yourself in, what do you have to offer? Ideas can change the world, and all it takes is an idea to take root for that change to begin. So excuse me while I nail my 95 Theses on the door of the Castle Church.

30 minutes Lanny....like I said...I wonder if you have a job at all. Considering how juvy you are I really have my doubts.

Anyways, I will see if I can chip through the wood. If all those wonderful ideas of yours (and yes they are good ideas) were actually cheaper and easier to use than what we have now I beleive they would be already widely used. But since they are not,yet, they are not widely used.

Now if anyone has a way, not an idea, of making them easier and cheaper....awesome!

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by HOZ

Agreed. Like I have said their is plenty of "Idea factories" people and very few people considering the implementation of these ideas. It is easy to say we need to stop this and that. Much harder to do it.

As for Gore the man is a hypocrit in the biggest way. He lives in a mansion that costs 31000 dollars a month in electric bills. In my life time I will never ever be able to afford such home. Yet I am suppose to clean up my act?? The Goracle is a farce. He travels via his private jet, he travels in a cavalcade so big it makes traffic jams in LA look minute. But, but he pays carbon offsets!!!!!! To a company HE OWNS!

Gore talks for fools.

And you talk for who?

Gore may be a hypocrite, I don't know. I don't even care. Why is he so important to you? His personality and lifestyle are completely irrelevant to the matter.

If you think this global warming thing is bogus then that's one thing, but the message you and other "I Hate Gore" types are putting out there is "Gore doesn't do it, why should I"? which is both childish and dangerous.

And it's not like the guy just cooked up a doomsday scenario and is now out there selling it for cash. This theory has been kicking around for like 20 years.

One thing I always wonder about the skeptics is do they believe that we should just keep going, using more and more as fast as possible, forever.

Forget global warming, what about plain old pollution? Shouldn't we cut back? Where are we going to end up if we keep doing this? A thousand barrels a second -- thats kind of intense, wouldn't you say? Never mind what else we burn up in that second. If this e-mail took me 3 minutes to write, then while I was doing it, 180 thousand barrels of oil were burned. That has to be affecting something negatively.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by HOZ

Anyways, I will see if I can chip through the wood. If all those wonderful ideas of yours (and yes they are good ideas) were actually cheaper and easier to use than what we have now I beleive they would be already widely used. But since they are not,yet, they are not widely used.

France runs on ~ 80% Nuclear Power for its power generation.

If it wasn't for the Stigma as Lanny mentioned of 3 mile island and Chernobyl, it would definately be more widely used. It is easier, cheaper and cleaner than using fossil fuels.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Shawnski

Prove that one. As Lurch has already pointed out, your numbers don't jive. Not even close. If my 22 MPG car was electric, would I get 352,000 MPG if that gas was converted to electricity first? Obviously not.

I don't think that the math is as you suggest it. The enegy loss from an internal combustion engine is quite high, and the process of using it in a high pressure closed system for electricity generation is much more efficient leading to more energy recovery from the burning of the fuel. Consider the efficiency of burning a piece of wood in an open fire pit versus burning it in a closed boiler system. Which one release more of the energy in the wood.

Sorry mate, as much as I don't agree, nor usually appreciate his/her posts (nor myk's), the blowhard that is best suited for wind power is yourself. Keep the rhetoric to a minimum and your posts will be more readable and in turn make more of an impact on the reader.

Buy yourself a sense of humor, or are you still all pissy about the Flames boming out so quickly and all us "negative" types having a much better grip on the hockey team as you "positive" folks? Probably still pissy since you went all Shergil on me for pointing out the problems with the team and saying the first round would be a humilating blowout.

Nope, not even close. There are very small areas in which a large scale windmill, let alone farm, can be deployed. Consistant high winds from a generally stable direction are paramount to being effective in harvesting that power. The energy cost to construct a windmill is quite high as well. How long before it is "paid off" in green energy (let alone maintaining it.)

Is it? I have no idea what prduction costs are for an industrial windmill. I do know that the power generation costs from the windmills are extremely inexpensive, so I think your incorrect on your information.

http://www.douglaspud.org/Environment/WindPower.aspx

Again, total misinformation. Geothermal (of which I am a big supporter) has nothing to do with what you stated. On the contrary, it is the exact opposite. It is like the radiator in your vehicle. When it is cool out, you are warmed by the flow of "heat" from the ground several meters below the soil. But when it is hot out (hello Phoenix), the cool temps under the ground act as an air conditioner with the Earth cooled anti-freeze cycling through the buildings systems.

I don't know what type of system you are talking about, but that is not geothermal power.

http://geothermal.marin.org/pwrheat.html#Q1

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/geothermal/powerplants.html

http://www.montanagreenpower.com/ren...mal/index.html

Lanny, these are just a few that stood out from skimming this thread. For someone that is so high on being analytical of situations like Iggy and the Flames, I would hope you could put more into your posts on this matter. I do value your opinions, but would hope not to see them evolve into a wooden bat vs aluminum bat travesty.

And I would hope you would have too, like posting correct information when you attempt to call someone out for the information they share, and they provide links to support their claims. When you say someone is wrong, you better be right and post the supporting information to your claim. Maybe I'm just expecting a lot, but I think that's a fair demand.

Side updates might include costs of ethanol and mercury in the new bulbs as food for thought.

Feel free to expand on the discussion. If you feel you have any information in a certain area, feel free to bring the information forward for discussion. The more the merrier, and much more informative.

Bring it, bring it hard. I encourage that. But bring it all man!!! Both sides as complete as possible. The most success I ever enjoyed in my business life was when I knew (and articulated) all sides of a debate, at all times. Answers became apparent so much easier that way.

Again, feel free to correct the information that you feel is incorrect. That's what the database is all about, sharing of opinions.

My 1/10th of a cent... after taxes.

Let me guess, that's Gore's fault too!

[sadora]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

And you talk for who?

Gore may be a hypocrite, I don't know. I don't even care. Why is he so important to you? His personality and lifestyle are completely irrelevant to the matter.

If you think this global warming thing is bogus then that's one thing, but the message you and other "I Hate Gore" types are putting out there is "Gore doesn't do it, why should I"? which is both childish and dangerous.

And it's not like the guy just cooked up a doomsday scenario and is now out there selling it for cash. This theory has been kicking around for like 20 years.

One thing I always wonder about the skeptics is do they believe that we should just keep going, using more and more as fast as possible, forever.

Forget global warming, what about plain old pollution? Shouldn't we cut back? Where are we going to end up if we keep doing this? A thousand barrels a second -- thats kind of intense, wouldn't you say? Never mind what else we burn up in that second. If this e-mail took me 3 minutes to write, then while I was doing it, 180 thousand barrels of oil were burned. That has to be affecting something negatively.

I find it funny and a bit pathetic how people keep missing the issue at hand here, which is global warming and how very little our government is doing about it. And yes, the Liberal government didn't much about it either when they were in office, but that should not be a cop out excuse for the current government. It's much easier instead to try and descredit the Al Gore for using his public image to make sure that everyone hears the message. Global warming isn't a figment of Al Gore's imagination, it's something that scientists and environmentalists have been warning people about for many years now. Some people may not belive the problem is that serious, well that means the think tanks are doing their job properly. I remember The problem is there and it will continue to get worse, especially with plans such as the one designed by the Harper government.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Is it? I have no idea what prduction costs are for an industrial windmill. I do know that the power generation costs from the windmills are extremely inexpensive, so I think your incorrect on your information.

http://www.douglaspud.org/Environment/WindPower.aspx

For what it is worth, there are very few location in Canada that can justify wind gen. A few spots in S AB, S MB and the east coast can work, but generally at poor returns that don't really attract much attention to investment dollars compared to alternatives.
Not sure what you mean by inexpensive, but you certainly can't be refering to the sunk cost of a turbine.

In general if any of your ideas worked commercially on any kind of real scale, they'd have already happened. Nobody is alergic to money, so if there was a buck to make these ideas would not be found once in a while on chat forums. The trick will be taking some of these nice and cute ideas and turning them into commercial scale operations that actually make an impact.

I'm all for ideas and don't really mean to discourage them, but the market can tell you if they work or not.