Teachers are at the end of their rope.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

But can get fired.

This trope frustrates me. It should unlikely to be laid off.

If your concern is lack of poor teachers being fired that is a management problem. The contract has a discipline process. If management doesn’t follow it or use it that isn’t a teachers fault or a perk of the job. That’s a failure of the boards and probably pretty frustrating to work with. Like when your co-workers suck and no one does anything about it is that a perk of the job?

[Slava]

Originally Posted by malcolmk14

The pay is good. I’m pretty much capped out 9 years in - not a lot of room for upside unless I decide to go into administration. My wife has an engineering degree and makes almost twice as much as me and has plenty more room for advancement/upside in her career.

My wife was a teacher for a while after University. I would say this factor was a concern for her. That, and frankly it was an enormous amount of work as a starting teacher with a husband who seemingly worked less and made more. The working less part was temporary because eventually she'd have all the lesson plans and prep done from past years (and I wish I had the summer off!), but the teachers salary was not going to catch up.

But the real issue wasn't that, or the actual teaching. It's the administration and to a lesser extent, the parents. In other words, it's not the children, it's the adults!

[puckedoff]

Obviously they can get fired but it does seem like any union gig gives people a pretty long leash. Weren't they struggling to remove the guy in Ontario wearing the huge knockers?

[Mr.Coffee]

it's a very stupid "debate" and people are being intentionally argumentative and obtuse and not reasonable about it.

Call me crazy but if the threshold for being fired is that you need to commit dangerous felonies for that to happen, you effectively cannot be fired. That type of job security is what I would call "a perk", no matter how much obfuscation and hand waving you want to do. What happens to a teacher if their performance is horrendous? From what I understand a principal needs to find them a new home but they cannot have their contract just outright terminated on the basis of poor performance.

[Spurs]

Where are people working at a career where people are getting fired all the time for random reasons?

Teachers certainly don’t have to face lay-offs like some other careers but that seems offset by the cap in potential earnings.

[CliffFletcher]

Aren’t most fields capped out in salary at some point - usually around 10 years of experience? I know mine is. For the last five years I’ve had only cost of living salary increases, and I expect that will be true of the next five years. The only way I’m seeing any substantial increase in my pay at this point in my career is if I pursue a managerial role with more responsibility and longer hours. But teachers have the same option - they can become principals.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Spurs

Where are people working at a career where people are getting fired all the time for random reasons?

Teachers certainly don’t have to face lay-offs like some other careers but that seems offset by the cap in potential earnings.

The energy and tech fields are both cyclical. Anyone working in those fields will experience many rounds of layoffs over their careers.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The energy and tech fields are both cyclical. Anyone working in those fields will experience many rounds of layoffs over their careers.

That’s different than fired. It’s perfectly reasonable to state that a benefit of most public sector jobs is job security and a lack of layoffs.

The idea that it’s difficult to fire incompetent people is a perk is what people are disagreeing with. It assumes that the average teacher would want to take advantage of this.

[you&me]

Originally Posted by GGG

That’s different than fired. It’s perfectly reasonable to state that a benefit of most public sector jobs is job security and a lack of layoffs.

The idea that it’s difficult to fire incompetent people is a perk is what people are disagreeing with. It assumes that the average teacher would want to take advantage of this.

Exactly... it's only a perk if you are incompetent, right?

Otherwise, presumably for most teachers, it's probably a negative, as you're forced to work with some incompetent people from time to time.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by you&me

Exactly... it's only a perk if you are incompetent, right?

Otherwise, presumably for most teachers, it's probably a negative, as you're forced to work with some incompetent people from time to time.

You know who it's really a negative for? Parents and students!

The truth is, we all know it's hard to fire teachers who are poor performers or incompetent. We've all dealt with teachers who are basically coasting and riding it out until retirement, with no real solution to that problem. Other teachers deal with it, and of course students and parents as well.

[you&me]

Originally Posted by Slava

You know who it's really a negative for? Parents and students!

The truth is, we all know it's hard to fire teachers who are poor performers or incompetent. We've all dealt with teachers who are basically coasting and riding it out until retirement, with no real solution to that problem. Other teachers deal with it, and of course students and parents as well.

Well, I would imagine so... But it's only a perk to those, what, 1 in 20 incompetent teachers? To otherwise call it a perk of the job for all teachers seems to be pretty off the mark.

[driveway]

Thing I just learned today: in the Catholic school board, teachers get 1 day off during the school year for personal leave (not sick leave). Beyond that, they need to pay out-of-pocket for their own substitute. So events like weddings, graduations, or family emergencies that don’t happen during vacation time become either impossible or have an additional expense for catholic school teachers.

This is in a province where the 18 most-expensive private schools (charging 12k - 35k / year) received $43 million dollars in public funds last year and $314 million in total public funding went to the 197 private schools in the province.

https://public-schools.ab.ca/wp-cont...in-Alberta.pdf

[wwkayaker]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

But can get fired.

I know several teachers who have been fired. Three of those teachers lost their certification.

If principals do their due diligence in the first two years of new teacher evaluations, they can avoid some poor teachers. Some teachers who start out strong fade later on which I doubt is exclusive to the teaching profession; I bet a lot of these people aren’t fired too.

In regards to pay, I think the pay is fair but I don’t really know how it compares to other professions because most pay info isn’t available to the public. I’ve had business dealings with other professions who make more than me where I left thinking this is pretty easy compared to my profession but what do I really know about their work schedules and stress levels.

The holidays are ####ing great! Lobby your MLAs to change the education act and number of instructional/operational days if you are so concerned about the school schedule.

Kids are getting more difficult to deal with now but that’s true of many things these days. Parents are a lot like the people in this thread…some are #######s, most are in the middle and some are great.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by driveway

Thing I just learned today: in the Catholic school board, teachers get 1 day off during the school year for personal leave (not sick leave). Beyond that, they need to pay out-of-pocket for their own substitute. So events like weddings, graduations, or family emergencies that don’t happen during vacation time become either impossible or have an additional expense for catholic school teachers.

This is in a province where the 18 most-expensive private schools (charging 12k - 35k / year) received $43 million dollars in public funds last year and $314 million in total public funding went to the 197 private schools in the province.

https://public-schools.ab.ca/wp-cont...in-Alberta.pdf

I mean, I've been limited by that as someone married to a teacher, but it's also not unreasonable given the total amount of time off teachers get. Most professional jobs if you take a day off for a funeral or something all your work is waiting for you when you get back, the office doesn't hire a 1-day replacement. That wouldn't work with kids...

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

it's a very stupid "debate" and people are being intentionally argumentative and obtuse and not reasonable about it.

Kinda like losing your mind over ONE comment that overstated the drawbacks of the summers-off perk?

Call me crazy but if the threshold for being fired is that you need to commit dangerous felonies for that to happen, you effectively cannot be fired. That type of job security is what I would call "a perk", no matter how much obfuscation and hand waving you want to do. What happens to a teacher if their performance is horrendous? From what I understand a principal needs to find them a new home but they cannot have their contract just outright terminated on the basis of poor performance.

Perhaps a more nuanced take here would be that it can be difficult to have as much autonomy over your workplace/location than you could in the private sector. While you are unlikely to be fired, it is also quite difficult to change schools. When I'm not loving the fit in the private sector, I can explore alternatives 365 days a year, and decide on each opportunity accordingly (though of course getting offers is easier said than done).

Teachers have a limited window to orchestrate any change, and it's a trickier game of musical chairs. Not a big enough drawback to offset the job security perk, but there are two sides to every coin here.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

But can get fired.

This is lazy(and unfounded) argument.

[iggy_oi]

If there is any truth to Mr.Coffee’s claim that bad teachers aren’t getting fired it probably has more to do with a shortage of available teachers to replace them than it does with any unfounded theory that a teacher can’t be fired.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by you&me

Exactly... it's only a perk if you are incompetent, right?

Otherwise, presumably for most teachers, it's probably a negative, as you're forced to work with some incompetent people from time to time.

Disagree.

Many industries have slow downs and have to fire large amounts of staff, regardless of their competence. For example, my brother is an engineer and was working at a mining company. There was a slow down in copper prices. One day they laid of 1/3 of the office. A month later another 1/3 got laid off, including him. It took him over a year to find another job. He was totally competent and has kept the job he found for about 7 years now.

Many industries also constantly deal with structuring issues. For example, you may need 20 people with 5 years of experience, but only 5 people with 10 years or more of experience. or vice versa.

Lots of totally competent people experience layoffs in many industries. Job security is a big thing.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by blankall

Disagree.

Many industries have slow downs and have to fire large amounts of staff, regardless of their competence. For example, my brother is an engineer and was working at a mining company. There was a slow down in copper prices. One day they laid of 1/3 of the office. A month later another 1/3 got laid off, including him. It took him over a year to find another job. He was totally competent and has kept the job he found for about 7 years now.

Many industries also constantly deal with structuring issues. For example, you may need 20 people with 5 years of experience, but only 5 people with 10 years or more of experience. or vice versa.

Lots of totally competent people experience layoffs in many industries. Job security is a big thing.

Layoffs are different than getting fired for being incompetent. I was in a group at an O&G company where 98 out of 102 people got laid off over a 2 year period (exploration group in a down cycle). Some were incompetent but mostly it was the normal mix of people. Teachers (and public service in general) doesn't have that risk which is a benefit.

I'm aware of one teacher who is a somewhat-functioning alcoholic and has been teaching high school in Calgary for years, getting shunted from building to building instead of getting fired. This person shouldn't be teaching kids, and it's a terrible deal for the other teachers, who always end up picking up the slack. That's not a feature for anyone except the people who are awful.

[opendoor]

Teachers get laid off all the time, it's just done by seniority. If you're not in a permanent position and enrolment drops, you absolutely get laid off and are back to subbing unless a position opens up.

No, teachers with 10+ years of experience don't normally get laid off like others might in an economic downturn, but that's basically the reality with any job that has inelastic demand. How often do experienced nurses, pharmacists, police officers, etc. get laid off?