Teachers are at the end of their rope.

[driveway]

A major issue teachers and the education system face is that everyone thinks they understand how education works because they went to school, which is more-or-less the same thing as thinking you know how the economy works because you have money.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by driveway

A major issue teachers and the education system face is that everyone thinks they understand how education works because they went to school, which is more-or-less the same thing as thinking you know how the economy works because you have money.

If I could predict how the economy works I'd have WAY more money.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by driveway

A major issue teachers and the education system face is that everyone thinks they understand how education works because they went to school, which is more-or-less the same thing as thinking you know how the economy works because you have money.

I don't really get how understanding or not "understanding how the education system works" is even that relevant when you have somebody come in and say that time off is not a perk.

Recall that my original dispute was regarding the ridiculousness of the assertion. Spurs has done a good job pointing out that there are varying degrees of how good a benefit can be, and they're totally right and that stance is way more reasonable than outright saying it is not a perk.

Further, similar to your point about how nobody understands what educators have to deal with is equal and equivalent to their lack of understanding about what 99% of the population deals with in other jobs.

My main issue with teachers (personally, my opinion) is that they seem to effectively play the victim card non-stop. As if they are this crazy hard-done-by profession that nobody will or can ever understand. But do they understand what most jobs entail? How can they criticize others for "not understanding what they deal with" when likewise they don't empathize for other careers? And in the end, it's kind of a weird discussion altogether. Different jobs are different. News at 11. If it's so ####ing good, go be a teacher. If it's so ####ing bad, quit and join the private sector. But let me tell you... you'll miss those 11 weeks off. I guarantee it.

[Russic]

Originally Posted by you&me

Agree almost everything you said... Except the bolded above.

Are you saying the "different obnoxious job" for teachers is... spending the entire summer with their own child(ren)?

Clearly you've never hung out with my children.

Fine, I'm joking (a bit). If you're a teacher and your spouse works a bunch, you're essentially a single parent for a lot of summer. For many parents, that's a dream! For many others (who remain very quiet), it's not exactly a vacation.

In fairness, I know many teachers who list summers with their kids as the #1 perk of the entire career.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Russic

If you're a teacher and your spouse works a bunch, you're essentially a single parent for a lot of summer. For many parents, that's a dream! For many others (who remain very quiet), it's not exactly a vacation.

Those teachers can do what other parents do, and put their kids in camps at $400 a week each.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

My main issue with teachers (personally, my opinion) is that they seem to effectively play the victim card non-stop. As if they are this crazy hard-done-by profession that nobody will or can ever understand. But do they understand what most jobs entail? How can they criticize others for "not understanding what they deal with" when likewise they don't empathize for other careers?

This feels like you're running into a discussion about teaching and education screaming "all jobs matter."

[Russic]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Those teachers can do what other parents do, and put their kids in camps at $400 a week each.

Oh they do... assuming they remembered to do it in February when all the spots got filled up. I've got mine in only 1 each this year. Two kids, five days... $800...

This is mostly why I'm a big proponent of full-year school. Spread out the breaks so they aren't so summer-loaded. We don't need kids to help with the crops anymore. Give them a 3-week break like spring, then send them back to the salt mines.

Yes, I acknowledge that I want the solution that fits my personal life situation best. I know teachers get fired up about being seen as glorified babysitters, but let's also consider that many parents aren't doing great and babysitting is perhaps the most important industry on the planet sometimes.

[woob]

Originally Posted by you&me

Agree almost everything you said... Except the bolded above.

Are you saying the "different obnoxious job" for teachers is... spending the entire summer with their own child(ren)?

Hey, no judgement here. I think people who speak candidly about how parenting can be hard and chaotic sometimes is healthy. I know many stay at home parents who have a love/hate relationship with summer holidays. Love the time with the kids, hate having to plan an entire summer of stuff to keep them occupied, etc. I don't think Russic is the only parent to have this view.

[The Big Chill]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

My main issue with teachers (personally, my opinion) is that they seem to effectively play the victim card non-stop. As if they are this crazy hard-done-by profession that nobody will or can ever understand. But do they understand what most jobs entail? How can they criticize others for "not understanding what they deal with" when likewise they don't empathize for other careers? And in the end, it's kind of a weird discussion altogether. Different jobs are different. News at 11. If it's so ####ing good, go be a teacher. If it's so ####ing bad, quit and join the private sector. But let me tell you... you'll miss those 11 weeks off. I guarantee it.

Does this opinion about them playing the victim card come from actually talking to teachers though?

I find frustration in the opposite direction. We get a thread full of non-teachers arguing back and forth and some people leave the conversation saying teachers are whiners. There are only a couple teachers that have chimed into the conversation here and none were complaining as far as I saw.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

My main issue with teachers (personally, my opinion) is that they seem to effectively play the victim card non-stop. As if they are this crazy hard-done-by profession that nobody will or can ever understand. But do they understand what most jobs entail? How can they criticize others for "not understanding what they deal with" when likewise they don't empathize for other careers? And in the end, it's kind of a weird discussion altogether. Different jobs are different. News at 11. If it's so ####ing good, go be a teacher. If it's so ####ing bad, quit and join the private sector. But let me tell you... you'll miss those 11 weeks off. I guarantee it.

Few professions get dissed more by the government and the average person than teachers. Case in point: your hostile remarks above. No wonder they play the victim card.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by The Big Chill

Does this opinion about them playing the victim card come from actually talking to teachers though?

Yes.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by edslunch

Few professions get dissed more by the government and the average person than teachers. Case in point: your hostile remarks above. No wonder they play the victim card.

Who is dissing them? What is hostile about my remarks? Please be specific. The victim mentality thing I guess? That would be my observation over the years. But, yeah, likely because they are always on the defense about their compensation that's fair.

[Spurs]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

My main issue with teachers (personally, my opinion) is that they seem to effectively play the victim card non-stop. As if they are this crazy hard-done-by profession that nobody will or can ever understand. But do they understand what most jobs entail? How can they criticize others for "not understanding what they deal with" when likewise they don't empathize for other careers? And in the end, it's kind of a weird discussion altogether. Different jobs are different. News at 11. If it's so ####ing good, go be a teacher. If it's so ####ing bad, quit and join the private sector. But let me tell you... you'll miss those 11 weeks off. I guarantee it.

Having worked in schools and knowing a lot of teachers in my personal life I would say this is a very small vocal minority that seem to also get a lot more attention from non-teachers and nowhere near a real representation of teachers overall.

I can't think of anyone that fits the description you are representing here.

I would say the opposite is true that many who complain about teachers ignore that many of the complaints they have are the same things that exist in every job.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Who is dissing them? What is hostile about my remarks? Please be specific. The victim mentality thing I guess? That would be my observation over the years. But, yeah, likely because they are always on the defense about their compensation that's fair.

Reread your post and tell me it isn’t very negative towards teachers. How would you like a post like this:

My main issue with oil and gas workers (personally, my opinion) is that they seem to effectively play the victim card non-stop. As if they are this crazy hard-done-by industry that is single-handedly responsible for all human progress. But do they understand what most jobs entail? How can they criticize others for "not understanding what they deal with" when likewise they don't empathize for other careers? And in the end, it's kind of a weird discussion altogether. Different jobs are different. News at 11. If it's so ####ing good, go be an oil and gas engineer. If it's so ####ing bad, quit and join the public sector. But let me tell you... you'll miss those massive paycheques, bonuses, Fridays off, and the leisurely pace of life in downtown. I guarantee it.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by edslunch

Reread your post and tell me it isn’t very negative towards teachers. How would you like a post like this:

I would agree with it.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Spurs

As I said there are pluses and minuses, and I say this from experience. I preferred my ability to travel when I wanted versus my wife having to only travel at the worst times of the year to go, especially to many of the vacation spots that you would take kids to.

I am not saying it is all bad but that it isn't all good as people try to paint it to be.

This is wild. There aren't minuses to having summers off...particularly in Canada where so many vacation spots and activities are seasonal. How many campgrounds open for May Long and close after September Long, as an example? Half the year roads aren't even at their safest for travel. Kids are off during the summer (for families), so nothing could be more convenient. What time of year can you enjoy your yard, paint your house, build your fence, go bike riding in Fish Creek, etc. etc.?

And then in winter...who doesn't want a couple weeks off around Christmas to spend time with loved ones?

To say their time off doesn't coincide with the best times of year for vacation days is, honestly, super dumb.

Originally Posted by Russic

The perk of summer vacation is a complicated and nuanced one. It depends on a bunch of factors, like what your level of burnout heading into July is, what stage of life you're at, and what the rest of your family is doing.

A huge segment of my social circle is teachers, so I can assure you there is no general consensus here. If you're 50, your kids are 20, summers off will be defended until your dying breath. If you're 35 and your kids are 5, and you're not married to a fellow teacher, summers off are hardly "off" at all, your one obnoxious job just becomes a different obnoxious job.

So debating whether summers off is a perk or torture is sorta silly, because it will vary so much from person to person.

As for the money argument, I think they paid reasonably well for what they do. Most teachers I know have zero problem with how much they get paid, but what they want is smaller class sizes, more support for children who are mentally unwell, and assistance in dealing with parents... ya know... things that won't ever happen. So money it is. It's literally one of the only resources they can negotiate on. Ya, they come off greedy to some, but there's not a lot else to negotiate on.

I hear this and I always wonder if people are saying it with a straight face of just trying to get a rise out of the rest of us who started work with two weeks off a year (it's three, now), but had to work the first 12 months before being eligible for any time off at all.

Burnout can hit anyone, but barely anybody has two months off to look forward to just a couple months after their last week off, which was just a couple months after their last two weeks off.

I've been silent in this thread as I'm not in the mood for being the poster boy for pointing out that being a teacher is a terrific career (for whatever reason teachers want us to think they have it rough, which I believe is their union trying to incite them, but whatever), but nobody should be humouring this ridiculous notion that teachers don't have absolutely outstanding holiday benefits. They run the same schedule seven-year-olds run FFS.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I've been silent in this thread as I'm not in the mood for being the poster boy for pointing out that being a teacher is a terrific career (for whatever reason teachers want us to think they have it rough, which I believe is their union trying to incite them, but whatever), but nobody should be humouring this ridiculous notion that teachers don't have absolutely outstanding holiday benefits. They run the same schedule seven-year-olds run FFS.

Don't forget that teachers can, if they want, get a summer job.

I have some teacher friends that work through the summer at a different job, and some that don't.

My one buddy took on a construction job last summer and made $40,000 in his summer.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Don't forget that teachers can, if they want, get a summer job.

I have some teacher friends that work through the summer at a different job, and some that don't.

My one buddy took on a construction job last summer and made $40,000 in his summer.

Oh totally, dude. I know so many teachers that it's weird. One of my friends waitressed (she's super social) for the first 10 years of her career in the summers. Another friend maintains this park/fountain thing in his neighbourhood. One more works at her family's business. My uncle was a teacher and did handyman work every summer. But, anyway, busy week and I don't want to get dragged into this.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

in an earlier post you stated most other people (you talking oil and gas I assume?) had similar pension pay.

Disagree. 10%? I've seen as high as 7% which was really good but I don't think I've seen as high as 10%. Unless you are including bonus, long-term comp? I'm sure there are a couple companies out there that might offer 10% but it wouldn't be the norm in my experience.

Your point about saving money stands though, for sure. It's a good point. Can anyone actually detail what the teachers pension actually is? I had heard it was average of your 5 highest earning years for life after retirement, but I'm not sure that's true and am too lazy to go research if there's a teacher here that can just confirm / deny.

I believe I said a 10% match was on the high side for O+G. But also O+G salaries are also better in many roles with similar duration of post secondary education. And like you say there are other long term compensation options. The main point I suppose is that relative to other professionals there compensation including pension is not unreasonable.

As for the pension I believe 70% of you 5 highest years after reaching 85 years of combined age plus service. So start at 25, work for 30 years, get pension at 55. Now that assumes you are able to get a full time teaching role within 3 years out and aren’t still subbing and you did 4 rather than 6 years of post-secondary.

You also don’t get CPP as that’s included in the pension.

https://www.atrf.com/

Has more details.

Certainly there are benefits to it being a defined benefit plan in terms of risk management. They are really good pensions but most of the benefit is driven from forced savings when compared to other professionals

[GGG]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Don't forget that teachers can, if they want, get a summer job.

I have some teacher friends that work through the summer at a different job, and some that don't.

My one buddy took on a construction job last summer and made $40,000 in his summer.

Don’t forget that you too can get a side hustle on your time off as well