Teachers are at the end of their rope.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Wormius

Do you think any of what he described are worthwhile perks? First assuming the kids and parent are even at the same school, this perk is useful only until the kids are old enough to stay home by themselves. So it’s not like 12 years of saving money on daycare.


Having the same holiday schedule aligned to the most expensive travel seasons aren’t a perk either. After the kids have completed school, there isn’t even a benefit to having that time off. What are you going to do for 2 months? Take a seasonal job?

The aligned holidays is a good perk regardless of flying to destinations. They will do stuff like kayak on the Bow, take the dog to Nose Hill park for a day, etc. Having July/August off every year is one of the biggest perks of any job anywhere. I've been jealous of it my entire career beside hers.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by DFO

My last O&G shop did a 15% match to employee’s 10% max.

That's the best I have heard of and I suspect your bonus / L/T comp suffered (relatively, industry speaking) as a result of the comp philosophy. If not, that is amazing though, and not the norm in my experience.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Wormius

Do you think any of what he described are worthwhile perks? First assuming the kids and parent are even at the same school, this perk is useful only until the kids are old enough to stay home by themselves. So it’s not like 12 years of saving money on daycare.


Having the same holiday schedule aligned to the most expensive travel seasons aren’t a perk either. After the kids have completed school, there isn’t even a benefit to having that time off. What are you going to do for 2 months? Take a seasonal job?

This post is a total joke. Give me a break.

Okay if the time off isn't a perk let's see how the teachers react when we state we want to cut these breaks and have school full year.

Yes, it's a massive perk, actually. Your post is like saying bonuses aren't a significant comp feature to oil and gas workers. It's straight up lying.

[Fuzzy14]

Pretty much all teachers I know (they're all high school teachers) would be perfectly happy without a raise if they could have classes that don't have 40+ kids in each.

Their second biggest complaint would also be the decline in standards, ie kids can submit assignments whenever they want without suffering any sort of penalty to their grade, let alone a 0. The last week of the semester is a rush by the kids to submit the assignments from January. Being strongly encouraged to "just pass" kids that have grades in the low 40s.

During report card comments last week, my wife was struggling to decide what comment to put down for a kid who has a 65% in her class despite having not completed a single project assignment. Kid would be in the 80s or 90s if he did. I suggested a good comment would be: "Timmy's grade would be improved if he complete the assignments assigned to him". Apparently she can't put a comment like that because it's "behavioral"...

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by GGG

I wish people would stop complaining about pensions. They have a 10% match. If you saved 20% of your money you to can retire on the same timeline as teachers. Their pension is so good because they save a large % of their salary from day 1. They don’t have the option to borrow from retirement to but a house or just cash out rrsps to pay debt or just cut contributing for a few years because they have kids. They are an example of forced savings.

There’s a big difference between defined contribution and defined benefit pensions. And being able to negotiate with government to secure funding for pension fund shortfalls isn’t something the great majority of people are able to do. Very few private sector workers will have pensions as robust and secure as teachers. Even those who set aside as much money as teachers do. That’s just a fact.

I don’t know why people are getting defensive. Pointing out the good aspects of a job doesn’t mean you’re denigrating or complaining about that job. Teaching is a good job by almost any metric. Which is why there’s no shortage of people going into the profession.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy14

Their second biggest complaint would also be the decline in standards, ie kids can submit assignments whenever they want without suffering any sort of penalty to their grade, let alone a 0. The last week of the semester is a rush by the kids to submit the assignments from January. Being strongly encouraged to "just pass" kids that have grades in the low 40s.

Its seems most teachers and parents share concerns about declining standards and grade inflation. So where is it coming from? Who’s pushing the policy of passing everyone regardless of how much work they do?

[you&me]

Originally Posted by Wormius

Do you think any of what he described are worthwhile perks? First assuming the kids and parent are even at the same school, this perk is useful only until the kids are old enough to stay home by themselves. So it’s not like 12 years of saving money on daycare.


Having the same holiday schedule aligned to the most expensive travel seasons aren’t a perk either. After the kids have completed school, there isn’t even a benefit to having that time off. What are you going to do for 2 months? Take a seasonal job?

What a strange take.

Of course having holidays align with the kid's schedule is a huge perk. Regardless of whether they're old enough to stay at home, there is still the advantage of, you know, doing stuff with your kids... Are you telling us that you did / are planning to just leave your kids at home alone all summer? Not take them on trips, camping, activities or anything else that involves the parent spending time with them / not working?

As far as travel schedules and expensive travel seasons, the only alternative is to pull kids out of school... But even then, travel prices don't revolve around the CBE schedule, so there are very few genuinely cheap times to travel and they tend to be cheap for reasons other than not aligning with CBE holidays... If anything, this is still a perk because parent and child schedules align and the teacher doesn't have to compete with coworkers for time off to coincide with the kid's holiday schedule.

And yeah, regardless of having children at home, having the summer off is lame...

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy14

Pretty much all teachers I know (they're all high school teachers) would be perfectly happy without a raise if they could have classes that don't have 40+ kids in each.

Their second biggest complaint would also be the decline in standards, ie kids can submit assignments whenever they want without suffering any sort of penalty to their grade, let alone a 0. The last week of the semester is a rush by the kids to submit the assignments from January. Being strongly encouraged to "just pass" kids that have grades in the low 40s.

During report card comments last week, my wife was struggling to decide what comment to put down for a kid who has a 65% in her class despite having not completed a single project assignment. Kid would be in the 80s or 90s if he did. I suggested a good comment would be: "Timmy's grade would be improved if he complete the assignments assigned to him". Apparently she can't put a comment like that because it's "behavioral"...

We hear this every time negotiations come up, but it seems to me at the end of it, they always settle for more money and class sizes never get addressed.

[Fuzzy14]

We hear this every time negotiations come up, but it seems to me at the end of it, they always settle for more money and class sizes never get addressed.

Because when you've lost hope that your main grievance will ever be addressed, you place your focus on the thing you have more leverage over.

[Spurs]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

This post is a total joke. Give me a break.

Okay if the time off isn't a perk let's see how the teachers react when we state we want to cut these breaks and have school full year.

Yes, it's a massive perk, actually. Your post is like saying bonuses aren't a significant comp feature to oil and gas workers. It's straight up lying.

No it isn't straight up lying it is the truth.

As he said having to travel at all the busiest and most expensive times of the year is a pain. It is a negative for sure. Yes it is offset by having summers "off", the summer we get that full time off without my wife working will be a first.

I know it is shocking to close minded fools with an agenda but there are pluses and minuses. Shocking I know, but there are both good and bad things it isn't just a wonderful paradise some try to paint it out to be.

I never get what is so hard for some people to understand that like every job there are pluses and minuses. I have never seen people with less knowledge about what actually happens at a job try so hard to make things up about it.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy14

Because when you've lost hope that your main grievance will ever be addressed, you place your focus on the thing you have more leverage over.

Maybe teachers can address what internal changes to their ridiculous bureaucracy are / have ever been addressed or even reviewed? Is the union even aware that the primary concern is class size? That this is the primary goal in CBA negotiations?

Money isn't infinite. If taxpayers aren't willing to pay a PST / more tax, it is what it is and people (both families and teachers) should expect lower quality education IMO.

[peter12]

Ah, the semi-annual CP moan-fest about teachers.

[you&me]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy14

Because when you've lost hope that your main grievance will ever be addressed, you place your focus on the thing you have more leverage over.

Came to say the same thing - having 40 kids in a class is only one challenge teachers face in the classroom...

I don't doubt that some (most? all?) teachers would be "perfectly happy without a raise if they could have classes that don't have 40+ kids in each", but if I were a teacher, I would have zero faith in the administration or gov't to fix class sizes and address other issues, so I'd want to maximize my comp as well... Can't blame them one bit.

[Spurs]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy14

Pretty much all teachers I know (they're all high school teachers) would be perfectly happy without a raise if they could have classes that don't have 40+ kids in each.

Their second biggest complaint would also be the decline in standards, ie kids can submit assignments whenever they want without suffering any sort of penalty to their grade, let alone a 0. The last week of the semester is a rush by the kids to submit the assignments from January. Being strongly encouraged to "just pass" kids that have grades in the low 40s.

During report card comments last week, my wife was struggling to decide what comment to put down for a kid who has a 65% in her class despite having not completed a single project assignment. Kid would be in the 80s or 90s if he did. I suggested a good comment would be: "Timmy's grade would be improved if he complete the assignments assigned to him". Apparently she can't put a comment like that because it's "behavioral"...

Any teacher that has a problem with this is an idiot. The point of school is that students are learning and showing you that they have an understanding of curriculum you are teaching them. The idea that they have to show this by pre-set dates is silly. Teachers should care that the students know the material not when they know it or if they can reach arbitrary dates to know it.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Spurs

No it isn't straight up lying it is the truth.

As he said having to travel at all the busiest and most expensive times of the year is a pain. It is a negative for sure. Yes it is offset by having summers "off", the summer we get that full time off without my wife working will be a first.

I know it is shocking to close minded fools with an agenda but there are pluses and minuses. Shocking I know, but there are both good and bad things it isn't just a wonderful paradise some try to paint it out to be.

I never get what is so hard for some people to understand that like every job there are pluses and minuses. I have never seen people with less knowledge about what actually happens at a job try so hard to make things up about it.

He said it isn't a perk.

Are you suggesting teachers would prefer to give up this time off because of the expensive travel? I'm not even sure why you and him are conflating time off with travel costs as it's not like 100% of teachers travel abroad on these weeks off, so kind of a weird argument.

If this time off isn't valued by teachers I think society writ large should really push to close down this time off as it is a huge burden to families actually. lol

[Spurs]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

He said it isn't a perk.

Are you suggesting teachers would prefer to give up this time off because of the expensive travel? I'm not even sure why you and him are conflating time off with travel costs as it's not like 100% of teachers travel abroad on these weeks off, so kind of a weird argument.

If this time off isn't valued by teachers I think society writ large should really push to close down this time off as it is a huge burden to families actually. lol

As I said there are pluses and minuses, and I say this from experience. I preferred my ability to travel when I wanted versus my wife having to only travel at the worst times of the year to go, especially to many of the vacation spots that you would take kids to.

I am not saying it is all bad but that it isn't all good as people try to paint it to be.

[you&me]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

He said it isn't a perk.

Are you suggesting teachers would prefer to give up this time off because of the expensive travel? I'm not even sure why you and him are conflating time off with travel costs as it's not like 100% of teachers travel abroad on these weeks off, so kind of a weird argument.

If this time off isn't valued by teachers I think society writ large should really push to close down this time off as it is a huge burden to families actually. lol

Plus, the alternative to having time off coincide with school schedules is a) actually taking time off work and b) pulling kids from school... Seems strange to hear a teacher advocate for pulling kids from school to save on flights

[chedder]

Originally Posted by Spurs

Any teacher that has a problem with this is an idiot. The point of school is that students are learning and showing you that they have an understanding of curriculum you are teaching them. The idea that they have to show this by pre-set dates is silly. Teachers should care that the students know the material not when they know it or if they can reach arbitrary dates to know it.

Well, post secondary and then real-life have deadlines with consequences. Don't you think they should be prepared for this eventuality at least a bit?

[Spurs]

Originally Posted by chedder

Well, post secondary and then real-life have deadlines with consequences. Don't you think they should be prepared for this eventuality at least a bit?

I think we often vastly overrate how many deadlines exist like that in real-life and how much students will develop that in middle and high school. I will also prefer that they learn the material rather than meet arbitrary deadlines.

I also think that if your lesson is about meeting deadlines than that is the lesson. Have assignments in which meeting the deadline is as or more important than what the assignment is, make it clear to the students that is the expectation, teach them the skills they need to meet that expectation. That is how you teach them to develop time management, planning, hard work etc. that you will need to meet deadlines in the future.

Saying that your book report on To Kill a Mockingbird is due Dec. 1 and if not done by then is a zero doesn't help them meet the goals that you likely had when you assigned that book report. If they end up reading the book, analyzing the themes and writing a passable book report in February isn't that the goal of teaching?

I understand there are obviously certain time lines that have to be met in terms of end dates and dates when grades need to be submitted. I also understand that it can be tough if you think students take advantage of this and of course the workload of marking if everyone hands everything in last minute, but from people I have talked to that run their classes like this they say that really isn't a problem.

I think the primary focus of teaching should be that students learn the material and punitive punishments like late marks and especially zeroes doesn't help anyone learn the material in any way.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Its seems most teachers and parents share concerns about declining standards and grade inflation. So where is it coming from? Who’s pushing the policy of passing everyone regardless of how much work they do?

School administration. I'm familiar with one high school teacher who got tons of flack for failing kids, with a stated rule being that 45% or lower got rounded to 50%.

I think incentives matter here - the school board automatically gets their funding for students who pass and get the credits for a course. To get anything for students who fail they have to submit a form justifying what % of the course they delivered. So getting as many people as possible to pass is incentivized, whether they know the content or not.