Lindy was supposed to provide clarity to the Flames after the weekend, but the Flames haven't received it yet.
League wide speculation (among managers) is that neither Lindholm nor Hanifin are signing with the Flames on July 1.
If what Frank says is on point, I think both should be traded at the draft. If these players are uncertain, then that uncertainty is a "no" in my eyes. You either commit to signing July 1, or you get traded.
Yeah Conroy may have said “you don’t have to tell me by the draft” to be nice, but I agree - it doesn’t take that long to decide if you want the $68M or $84M. It’s yes or get out.
But other than money, which they can get anyway via a sign and trade, I’m still hard-pressed to come up with a reason for either player to want to stay here.
Based on where this team is, who its best players are, and who it’s likely to be able to add, I don’t see why both wouldn’t just start fresh somewhere else.
__________________ ”All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you.”
Rowan Roy W-M - February 15, 2024
Last edited by GreenLantern2814; 06-21-2023 at 09:28 PM.
Yeah Conroy may have said “you don’t have to tell me by the draft” to be nice, but I agree - it doesn’t take that long to decide if you want the $68M or $84M. It’s yes or get out.
But other than money, which they can get anyway via a sign and trade, I’m still hard-pressed to come up with a reason for either player to want to stay here.
Based on where this team is, who its best players are, and who it’s likely to be able to add, I don’t see why both wouldn’t just start fresh somewhere else.
Well, if I'd seen this earlier I'd have asked Pinder what he thought about it as I just saw him at Marda Loop Brewing while having dinner.....
The organization definitely wants Lindholm back but if he feels otherwise and we are forced to move him you got to wonder what that means for Huberdeau and Kadri. I can’t imagine those guys wanting to stick around if we finally declare a rebuild. So do they look at futures or continue to make trades with keeping the team competitive because of the kadri and Huby contracts. I guess that’s where ownership makes the call and determines the direction which I fear won’t be popular.
Huberdeau and Kadri took the money - they knew they’d be impossible to trade, and they could read cap friendly the same as us. Unless they really wanna be stuck here the rest of their careers, their only option is to be good soldiers, and hope they rebuild enough value that they’re worth something to someone with retention.
I don’t buy the “ownership all in on Huberdeau/Kadri” angle entirely - they have their arena deal. They’re gonna be here another 40 years. They wanted to make the playoffs because that’s the only way to stay in the black with the economics of the Saddledome. Now that that state of affairs has an end in sight, maybe they become more reasonable.
But there’s zero reason to be remotely committed to whoever’s left after the dust settles.
They’ve done nothing to warrant any kind of loyalty from ownership/management. The best players of this core play for Florida and Columbus, and the best players on the roster are very unpopular among large segments of the fanbase.
The night is always darkest just before the dawn, and the dawn is coming.
I hope.
__________________ ”All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you.”
Vegas won not because they had the best players (Adan Hill probably won't even be a starter next year either), they won because they all got on the same page and went to the rink with a chip on their shoulders because they were all outcasts that had former teams give up on them or deem them expendable and they banded together to prove them wrong under a strong coach.
Attitude & motivation are pretty underrated factors. If talent trumped all then mcdrai would have ring collections.
I think it's hugely important to have a group of guys that want to be here and want to don the C. You need guys that will go through walls for Huska, and I fear that his ideas/vision may fall on deaf ears over time all the same because the players in that room don't share his passion for being here and playing here.
Vegas is absolutely stacked. They easily have the deepest roster in the league. Any team that wins the cup comes together. That's a given. The Oilers don't win because their roster is top heavy and lacks depth. If they had depth they would easily be one of the best teams in the league. So while it's a nice sentiment you need talent before anything.
Vegas is absolutely stacked. They easily have the deepest roster in the league. Any team that wins the cup comes together. That's a given. The Oilers don't win because their roster is top heavy and lacks depth. If they had depth they would easily be one of the best teams in the league. So while it's a nice sentiment you need talent before anything.
Your entire argument is that you need depth. And your conclusion is that you need talent.
I don't think Vegas' talent is all that elite. Eichel just doesn't wow me. I mean, he's good - he's a first line C. But he isn't MacKinnon, or anything even close to that. Stone is elite when he's healthy. But he will probably never be healthy again. Pietrangelo? Solid #1, but not elite like Makar.
Vegas' strength is depth - they have more than anyone.
Easily won the division and went how far in the play-offs?
is that the goal for this franchise division wins and play-off flame outs?
We all know the goal. But I’m sure we can agree, having a dominant regular season team is still lots of fun. It also gives hope, and if things go right, anything can happen. I’m a fan, I’d much rather have hope coming out of the offseason. Beats knowing you’re gonna be garbage.
Last edited by flamesgod; 06-21-2023 at 10:04 PM.
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I don't think Vegas' talent is all that elite. Eichel just doesn't wow me. I mean, he's good - he's a first line C. But he isn't MacKinnon, or anything even close to that. Stone is elite when he's healthy. But he will probably never be healthy again. Pietrangelo? Solid #1, but not elite like Makar.
Vegas' strength is depth - they have more than anyone.
And they hit gold with Hill.
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Vegas is absolutely stacked. They easily have the deepest roster in the league. Any team that wins the cup comes together. That's a given. The Oilers don't win because their roster is top heavy and lacks depth. If they had depth they would easily be one of the best teams in the league. So while it's a nice sentiment you need talent before anything.
The Oilers also don't play as a team, and they don't have a commitment to defense from the top down because they're afraid to demand that of their two primadonnas.
The have an inordinate amount of ice time awarded to two guys that they ride into the ground, even on the PK where it's less appropriate to play them, and so they don't roll four lines like other, better playoff teams.
The depth wasn't bad this year either. It's just that they became a team that used the PP as too much of a crutch over the regular season and that bled into the playoffs.
They also had average goaltending that became sub average in the post-season.
The chip on the shoulders of the golden knights players absolutely 100% factored into their playoff success, as did it for Seattle this year, who arguably used their expansion draft poorly compared to Vegas, and yet nearly saw round 3 this year. And they hardly have a single 1st line player there. The guys in that room are highly motivated.
I would believe that a rebuild is very much on the table. Why wouldn't it be? It is obviously not plan A, probably not plan B either, but it most certainly is a choice on the table. Maloney said as much himself when he stated that there was a rebuild offer on the table for Tkachuk.
If Lindholm is traded, and the Flames are not able to replace him with another #1 centre in the lineup, will this team still be 'trying to compete'? I don't think so. That's a massive hole, on a team with question marks as is. I don't for a second believe that any of this ownership group are morons that go about their business on a hope and a prayer.
Sure, this team can make a series of 'hockey trades' and bringing in enough quality players to compete even if all of their upcoming UFAs are traded for futures only. Lots of those futures can conceivably be traded for win-now players. However, it becomes harder when you look at the cap.
Contenders are mostly all tight against the cap, and we all know the cap is barely moving. That means that every move that the Flames make shipping a notable UFA will probably necessitate some (closer to equal) salary coming back. It just makes manoeuvring that much more difficult. Yes, the Flames would also then be sending some cap back to other teams when making the opposite trades of course, it just means that moves are just harder to make - especially if you have to make a series of them.
The way I see it:
If Lindholm is re-signed, then hopefully Hanifin and Backlund are re-signed as well. Tanev is a warrior, but i do think the smart move would be to sell him. Toffoli can be re-signed to a decent contract, but wingers are much easier to replace (and Pelletier and Coronato are this team's best forward prospects, and they are both wingers).
If Lindholm is not re-signed, then I would like to see everyone being moved. Hanifin I would rather re-sign given his age, but if his contract demands are too high, or he remains adamant about waiting for next season, then you move him. Kylington is the only guy that should be re-signed then - assuming his demands are not so out of whack. However, he may want to play out this season too as he has zero bargaining position from sitting out an entire year. I hope he either extends for a fair deal, or just agrees for a further 1 year extension on July 1st.
I think you either place both feet into competing, or you place both feet into rebuilding. I think if you have one foot in competing, and one foot in rebuilding for the future, then you end up doing neither and finish in 16th spot again (not that this was why the Flames finished 16th last season).
I also don't think the Flames (or any team in the entire league) have any appetite for a 5 year rebuild. I think if they do rebuild, it will be a two year plan, with year 3 being a playoff-hopeful team already on the upswing.
This teams' drafting and development team is excellent, and Conroy himself has stated numerous times that he is very confident with them.
I think this all hinges on Lindholm. There is only one thing that I don't really understand...
Lindholm wants to see what direction this team is going in? They hired the coach already (and I assume that he approves of the coach), and he obviously has had discussions (and lengthy ones I assume!) with Conroy, so what is left? Is his expectation that Conroy is going to move some picks for players to win now? Does he want to see what happens with Hanifin? Seems to me that the direction on what kind of a deal they get in exchange for Hanifin would probably be dependent on what Lindholm wants to do, no? Either futures to maximize their rebuild, or for 'win now' players.
This off-season is incredibly interesting. Definitely not the rollercoaster that last off-season proved to be, but I guess it is early yet.
As for being able to compete now:
I think this team can compete as is. Obviously this team can not afford to lose talent for free any longer. They can't enter the season with this much asset worth as UFAs. However, let's say everyone gets re-signed. I do believe this team has enough horses to go on a run, especially with Markstrom in net. Yes, with Markstrom in net. I think there has been a long line of former #1 goalies who were hanging on in this league, or goalies touted as being good enough to become #1 goalies but never were, have been acquired by Calgary. Markstrom is the only one that I can think of that was a proven commodity and in his prime. I am sure he will have a bounce-back season. He is legitimately good enough to hide holes on your team.
I also look at this team as not having any glaring weaknesses. Strong in up the middle, good on the wings, strong on defence (assuming Hanifin is here), and strong in net (Markstrom returns to form, and Wolf backing up). Contender? Maybe not. However, I think this is a team capable of going on a run.
However, as stated, this team can simply not afford to risk entering the year with costly assets being able to walk away as UFAs. They may be in a playoff spot at the deadline, and find themselves out of one with just some bad luck or a few key injuries. I don't think this is a top 4 or top 8 contender to warrant that risk. If they were close, then so be it. Vegas went on a few runs in the last 6 years, even though they failed to make it last year. I would have liked to see this team on a few runs in that sort of a time-span. They haven't. They have been out of the 1st round twice in Treliving's tenure, and got smacked both times.
I would prefer that this team rebuilds right now. I think this is a great opportunity that should have commenced last season. However, I get it - and this team is hardly a 'bad team' either. I don't, however, envy Conroy's position. That's a lot of risk and difficult decisions that he has to make. I, for one, love that he is the GM now, and I have faith that he will see this out to the point where this team eventually gets good enough to go on runs, whether that is next year, or in a few years from now.
Last edited by Calgary4LIfe; 06-21-2023 at 10:30 PM.
I know it’s a cliche to say “this forum will have a meltdown”… but it will big a big one if it gets announced that everyone is being extended. It will be bad enough here if just Lindholm gets extended despite the fact that he is the most valuable (to the flames) among the potential 2024 UFAs.
I would be happy to see Lindholm sign if it’s for around Horvat money. But would be concerned if it’s more than $9.0 million.
I think it would be best if Hanifin is traded at the draft as long as he returns at least a first round pick in the 22nd to 13th overall range.
I think toffoli is best to be traded as well at the draft if he can return at least a first round pick in the 32nd to 22nd overall range or, alternatively, returns two picks in the second round. Would like to see someone like Coronato get minutes in the top six this year so I think toffoli is a valuable piece that could be traded.
Backlund I would be happy to see re-signed if it was for a max of 3 years at a reasonable cap hit. He’s been a great flame for a long time.
I think Zadorov could be re-signed for a reasonable cap hit. I like what he brings to the team and they could use his physicality with Lucic and Ritchie being gone.
All that being said… I would be fine to see the flames choose to rebuild completely if Lindholm chooses to leave. Sell everyone for picks/prospects.
