Alberta Politics & Government Thread 3.0

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Goriders

What are all of these facts you keep talking about. Can you list them for us?

No, I think you can probably do your own work on that, there has been plenty posted in this thread. Go back and look.

[aaronck]

Big Lolz from the premier that blocks non supporters on Twitter

https://twitter.com/user/status/1669075774157246467

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Muta

If he's interested in provincial, Nenshi should start the Progressive Conservative Party again. Familiar brand with Albertans, a new effective leader, and more right-of-centre / not on the bat#### insane/lunatic side of the spectrum that the UCP is. It will also likely syphon the moderates from the UCP, draining them of quality MLAs (if there are any left in that party).

Progressive Conservation Party.

Now this will involve far too much nuance, but there is actually a ton of red meat that can be spun out of the term conservation, though the knee jerk interpretation may associate with the idiotic side of environmentalism.

Originally Posted by Muta

How so? The Alberta Party lost its steam when Greg Clark left. For a new party, they gained 10% of the popular vote in 2015, which is actually pretty good (I voted for them that year). Once Clark (unfortunately) left and the party was invaded by Mandel and former PCs, they lost their identity and momentum. Nenshi actually calling a new party 'the PCs' would have an instant brand value and recognition with a credible leader. The conservatives who 'held their nose and voted UCP' or abstained in 2023 would have a credible option more in line with their own conservative values.

This gets trotted out a lot, and I believed it, but it is not factual.

2015 - under Greg Clark = 2.23% / 33221 votes (8707 to Clark himself)

2019 - under Mandel = 9.08% / 171996 votes (3601 to Mandel)


They lost the "I really like the Alberta Party" internet sentiment that people used when they couldn't understand why they irrationally recoiled at orange, but their results were much stronger (despite not winning any seats)

[Muta]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

This gets trotted out a lot, and I believed it, but it is not factual.

2015 - under Greg Clark = 2.23% / 33221 votes (8707 to Clark himself)

2019 - under Mandel = 9.08% / 171996 votes (3601 to Mandel)


They lost the "I really like the Alberta Party" internet sentiment that people used when they couldn't understand why they irrationally recoiled at orange, but their results were much stronger (despite not winning any seats)

Noted, but doesn't really matter. Once Clark was gone and Mandel was in, the party lost steam, regardless of numbers IMO.

[#-3]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

We have to keep in mind that voters who barely follow politics outnumber people who follow it like a sport (such as those who post in these threads) by a wide margin. Many of those low-engagement voters aren’t particularly partisan. When they decide who they’re casting their vote for, they ask themselves a pretty basic question - am I personally doing better financially than a few years ago, or worse? If they’re doing better, they’ll vote for the incumbent. If they’re doing worse, they’ll vote against the incumbent.

So one of the biggest factors in voting - the economic climate at the time of the election - is outside the control of candidates and their campaigns.

Not really sure I agree.

The people who follow it like a sport are always bringing information to me, "What do you think about China buying Trudeau off?", "Did you see Notely is going to raise taxes 37%".... they very much so have information, it's just incredibly poorly sourced and they are not interested in good sourcing.

The people who lost this election for the NDP were the low engagement people, and I had a ton of them in my life. "I'm not voting Smith, then I don't like Smith, the Kenny wasn't that bad was he? they'll find someone other than Smith, I voted UCP because I just don't trust the NDP with the economy"... Basically devoid the engagement required to see how irresponsible, short sighted or full of magical thinking, the decisions the UPC often makes are.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Muta

How so? The Alberta Party lost its steam when Greg Clark left. For a new party, they gained 10% of the popular vote in 2015, which is actually pretty good (I voted for them that year). Once Clark (unfortunately) left and the party was invaded by Mandel and former PCs, they lost their identity and momentum. Nenshi actually calling a new party 'the PCs' would have an instant brand value and recognition with a credible leader. The conservatives who 'held their nose and voted UCP' or abstained in 2023 would have a credible option more in line with their own conservative values.

I don't think you can just start up a new party with a brand that belongs to someone else.

[Yoho]

Originally Posted by #-3

Not really sure I agree.

The people who follow it like a sport are always bringing information to me, "What do you think about China buying Trudeau off?", "Did you see Notely is going to raise taxes 37%".... they very much so have information, it's just incredibly poorly sourced and they are not interested in good sourcing.

The people who lost this election for the NDP were the low engagement people, and I had a ton of them in my life. "I'm not voting Smith, then I don't like Smith, the Kenny wasn't that bad was he? they'll find someone other than Smith, I voted UCP because I just don't trust the NDP with the economy"... Basically devoid the engagement required to see how irresponsible, short sighted or full of magical thinking, the decisions the UPC often makes are.

Do you think they just gave you a vague answer with the hope to move on from you and the conversation?

I know I’ve quickly figured out when to stop arguing with an over the top NDP supporter that like a door to door religious salesman isn’t pleased with any argument you give them.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I still don't think it would be enough. It might be closer. I think the only real hope is for population to increase enough in cities that it gives them enough power to remove the rural control vote as the number of urban ridings increases. Many years to go.

This election turned on a 2% vote shift I believe though one might think this was the low point for the UCP in terms of electability. I however have faith they will get much worse.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Yoho

Do you think they just gave you a vague answer with the hope to move on from you and the conversation?

I know I’ve quickly figured out when to stop arguing with an over the top NDP supporter that like a door to door religious salesman isn’t pleased with any argument you give them.

Well if your arguments in reality are anything like your arguments here...

[wireframe]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Progressive Conservation Party.

Now this will involve far too much nuance, but there is actually a ton of red meat that can be spun out of the term conservation, though the knee jerk interpretation may associate with the idiotic side of environmentalism.




This gets trotted out a lot, and I believed it, but it is not factual.

2015 - under Greg Clark = 2.23% / 33221 votes (8707 to Clark himself)

2019 - under Mandel = 9.08% / 171996 votes (3601 to Mandel)


They lost the "I really like the Alberta Party" internet sentiment that people used when they couldn't understand why they irrationally recoiled at orange, but their results were much stronger (despite not winning any seats)

The Alberta Party ran only 36 candidates in 2015 compared to 87 in 2019. Running a candidate in every riding increased their vote totals.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by wireframe

The Alberta Party ran only 36 candidates in 2015 compared to 87 in 2019. Running a candidate in every riding increased their vote totals.

So they clearly lost steam (or something?)

So in 2015 that works out to 923 votes per candidate (or 700 votes per candidate not named Greg Clark)

In 2019 it was 1977 votes per candidate (or 1958 for not Mandel)

Obviously the circumstances were very different in competing against divided parties vs. UCP, but it's still hard to see a five-fold increase as such a failure. The truth is the party never had steam...just one really strong essentially independent candidate.

[Goriders]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

No, I think you can probably do your own work on that, there has been plenty posted in this thread. Go back and look.

Okay. So you have no facts. I was hoping you could sway me.

[Goriders]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Well if your arguments in reality are anything like your arguments here...

Please enlighten us on why we should embrace socialism oh wise one.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by Goriders

Please enlighten us on why we should embrace socialism oh wise one.

Well if you’re referring to the ANDP, they haven’t been ‘socialist’ for years. Where have you been? And if you really want to get into a socialism dunk party, you may not want to rule out they UCP - they are eager stewards of some of the most blatant corporate socialism you’ll see on the provincial level.

[Red Potato Standing By]

Originally Posted by Yoho

Do you think they just gave you a vague answer with the hope to move on from you and the conversation?

I know I’ve quickly figured out when to stop arguing with an over the top NDP supporter that like a door to door religious salesman isn’t pleased with any argument you give them.

Hardcore conservative folks are not much better, just some times better to smile and nod.

[Stewie991]

Originally Posted by Goriders

Please enlighten us on why we should embrace socialism oh wise one.

I’ve only been here a couple months or so, but even I know by now Fuzz is just a whiner. Best to leave him alone!!

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Stewie991

I’ve only been here a couple months or so, but even I know by now Fuzz is just a whiner. Best to leave him alone!!

I’m sure Fuzz is deeply affected by a character judgement from a poster whose contributions make it clear that even Clifford the Big Red Dog is above his reading level.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Goriders

Please enlighten us on why we should embrace socialism oh wise one.

As you like to say if the government is going to waste money on things we might as get out cut.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by GGG

As you like to say if the government is going to waste money on things we might as get out cut.

Exactly how I see it. If we have to choose between a Government that throws money away, and a Government that throws even more money away, I'll pick the one where at least my life is improved vs just the wealthy

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by btimbit

Exactly how I see it. If we have to choose between a Government that throws money away, and a Government that throws even more money away, I'll pick the one where at least my life is improved vs just the wealthy

I dunno man, if we just keep giving public funds to private companies, I have a feeling I'm gonna get a big payday one day. I can feel it. It'll make all the waiting in Dynalife labs for weeks of my life and 3 years to see a specialist really worth it.