Alberta Politics & Government Thread 3.0

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by opendoor

The two biggest things are:

1) Lower public funding; Germany spends 45% more public money on healthcare per capita and most of the better European systems spend 10-30% more.

Do you have the source for that? All of the sources I have show Canada spending as much or more per capita on health care as northern European countries, but they don’t break down the private vs public.

While you and I might support increased taxes to boost health care spending, most Canadians don’t. Certainly not the 20-25 sales tax and across-the-board higher income taxes which European countries can rely on. No Canadian politicians who want to get elected are proposing anything along those lines - even the NDP in Alberta vow they wouldn’t impose a PST.

Which means increased health care spending is coming from two sources: diversion from the other big budget item of education, and higher public deficits. The latter has been particularly attractive for the last couple decades. But with higher interest rates here to stay, we can’t rely on ever-growing deficits anymore. So we can expect health care budgets to continue to consume other public spending priorities - especially education.

Originally Posted by opendoor

2) Higher staff costs due to competition with the US. The average doctor or nurse's salary in Canada is about 20-30% higher than in France, the UK, etc. And the countries where healthcare professionals are paid at a similar level to Canada (Germany is one example), the overall funding is significantly higher to compensate.

I’ve found when I point out that Canadian doctors and nurses are among the highest-paid in the developed world, people tend to lose their ####. I’ll bookmark this comment for the future.

Originally Posted by opendoor

And the proof is in the numbers; most of the good European systems have 3.5-5 doctors per 1,000 people; we have 2.8. That's not a public vs private thing, or an efficiency thing, that's just fewer doctors. If we had 30-60% more doctors per capita, most of the issues we have with wait times and access would disappear.

Our expensive and lengthy training plays a part there. Canadian and American doctors are required to have two four-year degrees, while European countries require a single 5 or 6-year degree to practice medicine. Whether that excessive training is due to tuition-hungry universities, or professional bodies trying to keep the number of practitioners low, it should be addressed as part of health care reforms.

Originally Posted by opendoor

But introducing private health care without increasing the health resources in the country will do nothing except reduce the average person's healthcare quality.

But we can see from the U.S. that private health care does increase the health resources in a country. The U.S. has more doctors per capita, more hospitals beds, and shorter wait times than Canada. Those assets are distributed unevenly, but the average American typically has better access to care than the average Canadian - it’s the poorest third of Americans who get worse care. Basically, Americans collectively spend more on health care than Canadians and get better care.

I’m not advocating for Canada adopting that system, just pointing out that private dollars can increase capacity. As you noted yourself, Canada has to pay high salaries to medical professionals in order to compete with the U.S., because the big dollars in the system down there attracts resources (ie labour).

[Slava]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Back when I was a teacher all I got was my contributions back when I left the profession, and I’d been there for 5-6 years. The employer contributions didn’t vest until MUCH later.

What I do know is that police pension plans are gold plated. They can retire young with incomes higher than most working people get. I’d be pretty wary of leaving a position with that benefit especially when Smith has been making noises which put government pensions at extreme risk across the board.

The police pension is based on their last five years, so it depends. If that’s higher than most people get as they work, it’s higher. But there’s nothing stopping an officer from taking that early retirement and then working for the APP after that either.

And as far as the “government pensions at extreme risk” angle…is there evidence? Like aside from “Smith is an idiot” or whatever, what do you base that on? There are really no details on anything at this point, so I don’t see how you could come to that conclusion.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Slava

The police pension is based on their last five years, so it depends. If that’s higher than most people get as they work, it’s higher. But there’s nothing stopping an officer from taking that early retirement and then working for the APP after that either.

And as far as the “government pensions at extreme risk” angle…is there evidence? Like aside from “Smith is an idiot” or whatever, what do you base that on? There are really no details on anything at this point, so I don’t see how you could come to that conclusion.

I base it on what’s she said she’d like to do with pensions. That, plus her love of crypto.

And why are there no details of her Alberta Pension Plan anyway?

[Fuzz]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1663668000006852608


It's OK though, I've been told disinformation isn't a threat to our democracy and people can figure things out themselves. Sorry, but some people are just too dumb. We need to put a stop to this rot, starting with Rebel and WS. Shut them down already. Unless you really admire what is happening in Florida.

[Ozy_Flame]

Florida would like you to know there is no parallel relationship between disinformation and the amount of books being burned.

[looooob]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Our expensive and lengthy training plays a part there. Canadian and American doctors are required to have two four-year degrees, while European countries require a single 5 or 6-year degree to practice medicine. Whether that excessive training is due to tuition-hungry universities, or professional bodies trying to keep the number of practitioners low, it should be addressed as part of health care reforms.



.

there is no doubt training is expensive, this is a problem for many reasons, including cutting out quality applicants (and I suppose to your point then it does lead secondarily to a push for higher compensation on the other side, due to accrued debt). I have little doubt universities are tuition hungry, but I've never been of the belief honestly (call me naive) that most docs are trying to suppress the competition pool (may be true in some niche areas) frankly most docs would welcome more, and certainly I don't think the extra training year or two exists as a method to suppress competition (the bigger issue there I think would be training spots?)



many med schools dont' actually enforce that you need an undergrad degree prior (in Canada) but you are absolutely right that in practice it might as well be a requirement. some other countries do add years on the end of the training scheme as far as I know- for example the UK I think it is 3 years for 'general' practice, while it is 2 here in Canada

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

https://twitter.com/user/status/1663668000006852608


It's OK though, I've been told disinformation isn't a threat to our democracy and people can figure things out themselves. Sorry, but some people are just too dumb. We need to put a stop to this rot, starting with Rebel and WS. Shut them down already. Unless you really admire what is happening in Florida.

How does someone measure that kind of thing? How do we know if this is misinformation or not?

[Torture]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

How does someone measure that kind of thing? How do we know if this is misinformation or not?

They'll ask questions on if popular misinformation subjects are true and rank according to that.

I don't know if this was exactly the same in the chart above, but this is what they surveyed on for Covid misinformation:

For this research, we tested seven separate indicators of disinformation and we have constructed a disinformation index, a 21-point scale that measures how strongly respondents believe these seven pieces of disinformation:

COVID-19 was manufactured in a lab;
The reported number of COVID-19 deaths is being exaggerated;
Vaccine-related deaths are being concealed from the public;
Ivermectin is a safe and effective treatment for COVID-19;
COVID-19 vaccines can cause infertility;
COVID-19 vaccines can alter a patient’s DNA; and
Whether someone is vaccinated should make no difference to someone who is fully vaccinated.
The index is constructed as follows:

A respondent receives three points for every statement they rate as completely true or strongly agree.
A respondent receives two points for every statement they rate as mostly true or somewhat agree.
A respondent receives one point for every statement they skip (in other words, for every statement they are unable to correctly categorize as false).
Note that a respondent does not receive a point for skipping the statement regarding the effectiveness of ivermectin, as many respondents may simply not recognize the name.

https://www.ekospolitics.com/index.p...-to-one-chart/

[undercoverbrother]

Oh Beaverton..........

https://thebeaverton.com/2023/05/res...wn-on-alberta/

In the wake of Danielle Smith’s re-election as Alberta Premier, the other Provinces and Territories breathed a sigh of relief that, if nothing else, they can continue to #### on the Province of Alberta to make themselves feel a little bit better.

“Between Toronto falling into a state of decay and the Leafs leafing once again, it’s been tough times,” said Ontario resident Dalton McDaniels. “But for the next four years I’ll be able to say ‘at least we didn’t elect the vaccine equals Nazi lady,’ and that makes my heart warm.”

[pepper24]

Or maybe rural voters just not interested in voting for an Edmonton strong union heavy big city political party. UCP does a better job identifying with them.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by Torture

They'll ask questions on if popular misinformation subjects are true and rank according to that.

I don't know if this was exactly the same in the chart above, but this is what they surveyed on for Covid misinformation:

https://www.ekospolitics.com/index.p...-to-one-chart/

Very interesting, thanks for sharing. I was curious as well, although I definitely believed it just based on some peoples justifications for voting UCP on CP alone

[The Yen Man]

Originally Posted by looooob

there is no doubt training is expensive, this is a problem for many reasons, including cutting out quality applicants (and I suppose to your point then it does lead secondarily to a push for higher compensation on the other side, due to accrued debt). I have little doubt universities are tuition hungry, but I've never been of the belief honestly (call me naive) that most docs are trying to suppress the competition pool (may be true in some niche areas) frankly most docs would welcome more, and certainly I don't think the extra training year or two exists as a method to suppress competition (the bigger issue there I think would be training spots?)



many med schools dont' actually enforce that you need an undergrad degree prior (in Canada) but you are absolutely right that in practice it might as well be a requirement. some other countries do add years on the end of the training scheme as far as I know- for example the UK I think it is 3 years for 'general' practice, while it is 2 here in Canada

Does the Doctor's Union play any role in our current shortage of doctors? I'm just speaking anecdotally, but I have talked with friends who were in med school, and they've said one of the things holding back educating more doctors is the doctors themselves. They don't want to give up their earning power by diluting the market, so they make it really competitive. This is especially true with specialized doctors.

Med school just sounds stupidly hard to get into. I get that we want to hold the training standards high, but it honestly does feel like we're missing out good candidates just because there's such a limited amount of spots open for them to compete for.

[Ozy_Flame]

There is no "doctors union". You have to be a member of CPSA to practice in Alberta. Alberta Health sets billing codes. It's a fee-for-service system.

And of course there's compensation differences in specialties. Have you seen how much family docs get paid compared to neurosurgeons, anesthesiologists, and ophthalmologists? The pay is so high because those require more training and have much higher liabilities associated with them. Physician insurance is insanely high.

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

There is no "doctors union". You have to be a member of CPSA to practice in Alberta. Alberta Health sets billing codes. It's a fee-for-service system.

And of course there's compensation differences in specialties. Have you seen how much family docs get paid compared to neurosurgeons, anesthesiologists, and ophthalmologists? The pay is so high because those require more training and have much higher liabilities associated with them. Physician insurance is insanely high.

Where do you find what doctors compensations? Is it listed by province?

[looooob]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

Does the Doctor's Union play any role in our current shortage of doctors? I'm just speaking anecdotally, but I have talked with friends who were in med school, and they've said one of the things holding back educating more doctors is the doctors themselves. They don't want to give up their earning power by diluting the market, so they make it really competitive. This is especially true with specialized doctors.

Med school just sounds stupidly hard to get into. I get that we want to hold the training standards high, but it honestly does feel like we're missing out good candidates just because there's such a limited amount of spots open for them to compete for.

yeah I suppose as I said maybe I'm naive here. the doctors union here I suppose could be either the AMA or the college. I think lots of docs would have different views here. again I think in many specialities, the docs I know are not concerned about too much competition and would welcome the help! (realizing there are so many factors that go into this- med school seats, training positions (with people with -compensated time-to train them), then depending on the graduating doctor or specialty (and need for hospital based resources) it may or may not be easy for someone to just set up shop


a specific area where competition may matter more is in surgical specialties and subspecialities- here there is a bit of a paradox- the staff surgeons need a steady supply of residents to help cover all the acuity ill patients i hospital and the ORs etc, but yet there is limited OR time to keep everyone employed on the other end once they graduate (here is I suppose where you see arguments like privitization gaining some traction)


anyways suspect you ask 10 docs and you'd get 10 different answers and maybe 5 different agendas

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by pepper24

Or maybe rural voters just not interested in voting for an Edmonton strong union heavy big city political party. UCP does a better job identifying with them.

The bull#### is strong with this one.

Yeah rural folks hate Unions so much that there employers have to lobby the government to pass legislation that prevents them from even considering VOLUNTARILY joining or forming one.

CLAC supported the UCP’s platform on corporate taxes.

https://www.clac.ca/Your-voice/Artic...obs-in-alberta


Does that mean the UCP are getting infiltrated by Unions*?

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

Does the Doctor's Union play any role in our current shortage of doctors? I'm just speaking anecdotally, but I have talked with friends who were in med school, and they've said one of the things holding back educating more doctors is the doctors themselves. They don't want to give up their earning power by diluting the market, so they make it really competitive. This is especially true with specialized doctors.

Med school just sounds stupidly hard to get into. I get that we want to hold the training standards high, but it honestly does feel like we're missing out good candidates just because there's such a limited amount of spots open for them to compete for.

This might be an interesting read:
From Perceived Surplus to Perceived Shortage: What Happened to Canada's Physician Workforce in the 1990's?
https://secure.cihi.ca/estore/produc....htm?pc=PCC161

[looooob]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

Where do you find what doctors compensations? Is it listed by province?

that would be tricky , and gets apples to oranges pretty quickly


you can glean billing codes
you can sometimes glean information on docs in alternate funding plans and what the grids are
you can sometimes find out or glean what the highest billers are billing
harder to determine from that what the overhead and other speciality related costs (insurance etc are)


here I think some of the MD associations realize they may need to do a clearer job, this is sort of what happened at the time of the Shandro bun fights "doctors make this much!" " yes but overhead and expenses" etc

[looooob]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

This might be an interesting read:
From Perceived Surplus to Perceived Shortage: What Happened to Canada's Physician Workforce in the 1990's?
https://secure.cihi.ca/estore/produc....htm?pc=PCC161

Yes the Barer-Stodard report and its fallout- I think much of this again was driven by governments as opposed to MDs wanting to beat back competitors

https://www.cmaj.ca/content/195/4/E162


although as that article also points out while that led to plateauing for decades, there has been a pickup in MD supply again

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by looooob

Yes the Barer-Stodard report and its fallout- I think much of this again was driven by governments as opposed to MDs wanting to beat back competitors

https://www.cmaj.ca/content/195/4/E162


although as that article also points out while that led to plateauing for decades, there has been a pickup in MD supply again

Why would the governments care about over supply though? Would they benefit from increased supply and competition in the physician market? I'm not speaking in race to the bottom scenario for wages but moreso a benefit in terms of selecting candidates for their hiring.