[News] Darryl Sutter out as Head Coach. Maloney presser at 11:30 AM MT

[All In Good Time]

Originally Posted by theslymonkey

I can see that, but both of them are now on their final year.
I see the louder voices becoming Hubs, Kadri, Coleman, Ras, Weegs and probably Markstrom.

I'm not convinced that Coleman Andersson and Weegar were completely in the same camp as Kadri.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Don Benji

Rick Bell has been sober for over 25 years.

Good for him, for real.

Makes it all the more strange that he never wasted an opportunity to ask Hinshaw about it.

[Yeah_Baby]

Originally Posted by All In Good Time

I'm not convinced that Coleman Andersson and Weegar were completely in the same camp as Kadri.

Pretty sure there was discussion this year about how Weegar was the floater between both camps, trying really hard to walk the line.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Yeah_Baby

I think Z and Toffoli (maybe more so Toffoli) were Sutter guys fwiw


Either way you can start to paint a picture of why folks talked about Tre being a 'firefighter' this year.

Yeah, but I think both those guys are team guys that just want to play.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

On one of the After Burner episodes recently, it was suggested that Sutter also had his supporters in the room and the rift wasn't just between Sutter and some players, but between players who wanted to do things Sutter's way and those who didn't, and it was causing locker room friction. I could definitely see that, and I am not sure that getting rid of Sutter fixes that rift.

It was concerning to read about Huberdeau's comments, his lack of "points" , when he has never won anything. In the playoffs it is about total team commitment. Scoring and points come within that structure. My concern is what if some players tune out the next friendly coach in favor of scoring goals and collecting points.

[Burning Beard]

Originally Posted by Yeah_Baby

Pretty sure there was discussion this year about how Weegar was the floater between both camps, trying really hard to walk the line.

Sounds like a guy who should be wearing an additional "C" on his jersey.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

I didn't understand Friedman's comments like this. I felt it was about playing style and systems. A collection of players believed things weren't working with Sutter and were upset with his "my way or the highway approach." However, instead of putting up with it, they dug their heels in as well to some extent and wouldn't meet Sutter even halfway. And these same players demanded Sutter be fired or they didn't want to come back.

I think other players realized that situation where a few core players were tuning out the coach was toxic for the team. And they didn't want another season where the coach and players weren't on the same page. There was agreement that "sure, fire Sutter, that's fine. He's too stuborn. But these players who wouldn't meet the coach half-way, they have to try harder with the next coach. Some of the fault is with them".

I don't think it was about quitting on the team so much as it was about tuning out the coach and his system.

Fair ...

But I see your final comment as the same thing.

If you're not following the game plan you're quitting on the team no?

[Ashasx]

Ultimately as an organization, you are competing against 31 other teams to attract players and personnel.

Whether Sutter's attitude gets results or not, if it leads to key assets wanting to go elsewhere, that's really all that matters. The Leafs went through this with Babcock.

It happened fast, but I just think these types of coaches can't survive in the NHL anymore. The players have too much power, and all the right, to dictate where they want to go.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Yeah_Baby

Pretty sure there was discussion this year about how Weegar was the floater between both camps, trying really hard to walk the line.

It's not out of the ordinary to have split locker rooms. When Keenan was head coach there were players that were on board with him such as Iginla and other forwards and Regehr and some of the defensemen not so much. I think Regehr and Iginla still got along but they did not share the same views on the system that Keenan employed.

[jammies]

Some of you sound like you'll be happier if the Flames miss the playoffs again next year so you can say "SEE, THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU DON'T CRUSH ALL DISSENT AND ENFORCE A HIERARCHY OF FEAR!!!!!"

There's nothing wrong with being demanding, setting expectations, and rewarding good work. Belittling people, refusing to explain your decisions, non-merit-based favouritism, and Machiavellian mind games ARE wrong, though, even if they get results, and doubly wrong if they don't, which they are unlikely to do in an environment where your underlings are not easily replaceable commodities and rather highly skilled specialists from a severely limited labour pool.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

It's not out of the ordinary to have split locker rooms. When Keenan was head coach there were players that were on board with him such as Iginla and other forwards and Regehr and some of the defensemen not so much. I think Regehr and Iginla still got along but they did not share the same views on the system that Keenan employed.

I've heard at one point the two were basically not on speaking terms with the room completely divided.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by taxbuster

Personally, I'm really interested to see what happens when the Millenial/GenZ group gets to the point where they own and manage businesses and the young employees start dictating to them how they should run their operations when THEIR money is on the line.

Life looks a LOT different when the shoe is on the other foot, folks.

I suspect you won't be around to see it, but if you do I think they are going to be running businesses in very different ways and being equally as successful and equally as bad as what you see today.

I think Millennials and GenZ will run their businesses in a much more open and democratic means than our generation has been used to. This is just part of their culture and their approach to doing things. Traditionally everything should be top-down from management, which these new generations do not accept. They want to be involved and they want to include all voices. That is culture shock to us boomers, but it does have its benefits and we must learn to adapt.

Because of the very democratic approach these generations take toward things I suspect they will be better at handling and managing change that comes from the expectations of future generations. We likely won't get to see it, but I feel they will be as successful.

(And yes, I agree, a grouchy boss is not a great model. OTOH, when one signs a contract and takes a position that pays real money, the expectation is that you - as an individual - will fulfill your part of the contract.

"OK Boomer" me if you want. I'll wait until it's your turn. I've had money on the line in businesses for decades.)

From one boomer to another, "Okay Boomer." Players do have contracts, but those contracts does not mean they have to be treated poorly or exposed to a toxic work environment. The levels of toxicity may differ by generation, but the comments coming out form the club seem to indicate it was unbearable to all. The right decision was made and hopefully the club will make another good decision moving forward in finding the right GM and then coach.

Originally Posted by taxbuster

In ordinary businesses, when people fail to meet the cultural expectation of an org they get terminated...and usually are paid to leave.

Just have to point out that Sutter was terminated and paid quite handsomely to leave.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I've heard at one point the two were basically not on speaking terms with the room completely divided.

Maybe at the time but they are pretty good now as my boy played Lacrosse with his son and he told me they still keep in touch. You are correct about the divide for sure and I think that ran into the Brent years.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Good for him, for real.

Makes it all the more strange that he never wasted an opportunity to ask Hinshaw about it.

I think that was him knowing his readers and speaking as them to government. Simple, cranky people that wanted to go to the bar when society needed help from it's citizens with a pandemic crisis.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by All In Good Time

I'm not convinced that Coleman Andersson and Weegar were completely in the same camp as Kadri.

I'm not convinced that Lindholm's discontent was related to Sutter either. I think it had more to do with losing Gaudreau and Tkachuk, and not finding any chemistry with Huberdeau.

Here's a guy who was on the best line in hockey the year before, getting relatively underpaid, and suddenly he has his line line mates ripped away and making big bucks elsewhere. Then Huberdeau comes in, whom he did not seem to like playing with, gets paid way more, and was not effective. Lindholm is watching his 2 buddies cash in, while he is left behind watching his stock go down.

If I had to guess, I would think Lindholm's beef has a lot to do with the management errors and long term direction of the team, and not the coach that helped get him a career year the year before.

[taxbuster]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

I suspect you won't be around to see it, but if you do I think they are going to be running businesses in very different ways and being equally as successful and equally as bad as what you see today.

I think Millennials and GenZ will run their businesses in a much more open and democratic means than our generation has been used to. This is just part of their culture and their approach to doing things. Traditionally everything should be top-down from management, which these new generations do not accept. They want to be involved and they want to include all voices. That is culture shock to us boomers, but it does have its benefits and we must learn to adapt.

Because of the very democratic approach these generations take toward things I suspect they will be better at handling and managing change that comes from the expectations of future generations. We likely won't get to see it, but I feel they will be as successful.

From one boomer to another, "Okay Boomer." Players do have contracts, but those contracts does not mean they have to be treated poorly or exposed to a toxic work environment. The levels of toxicity may differ by generation, but the comments coming out form the club seem to indicate it was unbearable to all. The right decision was made and hopefully the club will make another good decision moving forward in finding the right GM and then coach.

Just have to point out that Sutter was terminated and paid quite handsomely to leave.

I don't disagree with some of what you say - and I have no issue with "input". When "input" becomes "I ain't gonna do what you say because I don't like it" problems begin...and at the end of the day someone needs to make decisions.

A little story about a store some of you may remember: Earth Harvest Co-Op. It was a lovely store run by engaged staff. It had a Manager and a Board (I was on that Board) that listened to staff and did what it could, understaffed and underfunded as it was. Things changed and somewhere along the way it moved to a new location on 19 St NW and when I went in to shop and found the store dirty, disorganized and in rather a state. I asked for the Manager and was told "we all manage the store". Uh huh. These were your today-Boomers. I wrote to the Board with my concerns about lack of leadership and direction. There was no response. The store closed less than a year later.

The teams - and businesses - that are successful are those that become, and stay, aligned. Think of the 2004 Flames. A lunch-bucket crew that achieved more than expected. Why? Because they were aligned.

This team is not that if there is a split in the room. Somebody needs to say...hey, why is nobody driving the net? Why do Andy and Lindy always play pitch and catch on the PP? What is up with you Marky?

{K, enough for now...gotta go back to work as CRA is supposedly back on the job screwing things up for my clients!!}

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I've heard at one point the two were basically not on speaking terms with the room completely divided.

I heard the same thing, and specifically that Regehr was frustrated that the captain wasn't committing to the system or playing two-way hockey. Too much free lancing, flying the zone, etc.
From what I understand the division in the room basically lined up to a division between 12 and 28.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I heard the same thing, and specifically that Regehr was frustrated that the captain wasn't committing the system or playing two-way hockey. Too much free lancing, flying the zone, etc.
From what I understand the division in the room basically lined up to a division between 12 and 28.

Iginla was an all-time great Flame but in the back half of his career he turned into a hard player to coach. He felt the best way he could contribute was by cheating offensively.

[peter12]

At the professional level, all of the major companies in my sector are run or managed by Millennials or Gen Z-ers. Boomers have already been phased out and it is incredible how out of touch one seems in a management setting when you come across one.

As many people have said here, millennials in particular, are highly educated and generally more democratic. The "I have more experience" or "I have high expectations" card just doesn't play very well anymore. It's almost ridiculous to hear that from a Baby Boomer who can't even save a Word doc to a pdf.

Speaking personally, as a Millennial at a fairly senior-level position, my stance with management and people that I manage is to meet me halfway and then we can figure out how to go from there. It is far more beneficial and productive to spend a bit of time figuring out how different types of people work and integrating that style into a process or product.

[All In Good Time]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I'm not convinced that Lindholm's discontent was related to Sutter either. I think it had more to do with losing Gaudreau and Tkachuk, and not finding any chemistry with Huberdeau.

Here's a guy who was on the best line in hockey the year before, getting relatively underpaid, and suddenly he has his line line mates ripped away and making big bucks elsewhere. Then Huberdeau comes in, whom he did not seem to like playing with, gets paid way more, and was not effective. Lindholm is watching his 2 buddies cash in, while he is left behind watching his stock go down.

If I had to guess, I would think Lindholm's beef has a lot to do with the management errors and long term direction of the team, and not the coach that helped get him a career year the year before.

it wouldn't be a huge leap to think at least some of his disappointment is coming from wondering where the money for his next contract comes from, and if you compound that with not exactly enjoying his time with the newcomers, it makes it things much more difficult.