Alberta Politics & Government Thread 3.0

[StickMan]

Originally Posted by #-3

This gets thrown around here a lot, and we rarely get a clear answer, but what steps specifically?

When people rail against the UPC we have no problem finding concrete examples. From out of control spending on propaganda, to environmental destructions, to user fees, to inability to foster relationships with other levels of government, to declining control of things like the climate tax, to delaying the onset of covid benefits and restrictions to save face with fringe elements of their base.

But when they rail against the NDP, Notely is the Devil and she reconsidered taxes on the oil industry but didn't end up raising them.

A few reminders:

NDP appointed anti-oil activist Tzeporah Berman and Ed Whittingham, both enemies of Alberta’s oil and gas industry to oversee it, regulate it and advise on it.

NDP 6 month oil royalty review that created uncertainty in the industry and accomplished nothing.

NDP implemented carbon tax that they didn't campaign on and made everything more expensive.

When NDP took power in 2015, Alberta's debt was $11.9 billion, by 2019 it was $85.9 billion and climbing. In 2015 interest payments were under $800 million a year. When NDP left office, interest payments were over $2.3 billion.

The NDP drove up the debt, drove away businesses, implemented new taxes, raised corporate/individual taxes, and cost hundreds of thousands of jobs. Alberta was a complete mess after only 4 years.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by AFireInside

The Alberta NDP are pretty much in line with the PC party of the 80s at this point.

Oh man, I miss the Progressive Conservatives.

[StickMan]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Nobody who hated the NDP government can say with a straight face that the UCP hasn't been worse. You can say both suck, you can say you don't want to vote for anyone, but if the NDP ran counter to your interests then voting for the UCP makes you dishonest.

Unless the sole reason you're voting for the UCP is because you have backwards social beliefs. Then sure, I get it. But they spend more, waste more, and do more damage to both private and public industry than the NDP did. Their budgets are worse, our services are worse, we have literally gained nothing from their governance and would be in grave danger as a province had oil not come back up. Every "bad" thing the NDP did the UCP engineered to be significantly worse.

It'd be nice if people would stop pretending otherwise.

The reason to vote ucp is because there is no other choice. NDP is not an option based on past performance and Jagmeet/Trudeau connection. I would love another option.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by StickMan

Except the provincial NDP and federal NDP are actually integrated. And Jagmeet and Trudeau are a coalition. So there is that.

Sad that most NDP voters don't even understand how their party works.

I'll just repeat my post from a month ago:

Nope:

PROVINCIAL PARTIES
1. Each province of Canada shall have a fully autonomous provincial Party, provided its constitution and principles are not in conflict with those of the Federal Party.

2. In the event of dispute as to whether any particular organization is or is not a provincial Party in good standing, the Federal Council of the Party is empowered to rule on whether an organization shall continue to be a provincial Party, subject to appeal to Convention.

If you read the constitution and principles, “not in conflict” essentially requires provincial parties that want to use the name to avoid directly contradicting the spirit or overarching ethos of the NDP or the procedural elements laid out in its constitution.

Basically, you can’t move a provincial NDP party into a socially far right capitalist paradise that fights against workers having rights, and if you do, the punishment is that you can’t call yourself NDP.

Originally Posted by StickMan

A few reminders:

NDP appointed anti-oil activist Tzeporah Berman and Ed Whittingham, both enemies of Alberta’s oil and gas industry to oversee it, regulate it and advise on it.

And I can use a quote for this one too! If you're going to drop into this thread for the election, can you please make up some stuff we didn't just debunk a few weeks ago? You have to be better than that. Lying just looks lazy.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

And not even just “some panel,” specifically one “tasked with creating policy recommendations on how to implement the climate plan, address cumulative impacts of the oil sands and recommendations on meeting Canada’s climate targets between 2030 and 2050.”

Something she’s made a career out of across Canada and internationally. Something she has won awards for. Something that has earned her the ear of some of the biggest companies in the world and influenced actual positive change.

She was the co-chair of a committee in charge of making recommendations. And she was extremely qualified.

Meanwhile, the UCP put a catholic pro-life activist with zero experience as an educator in charge of education, where she then attempted to push through a rewritten curriculum that would ensure kids were taught that the Nazis did some good things?

But hey, “both sides have extremists!” Genius stuff.

[shotinthebacklund]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Nobody who hated the NDP government can say with a straight face that the UCP hasn't been worse. You can say both suck, you can say you don't want to vote for anyone, but if the NDP ran counter to your interests then voting for the UCP makes you dishonest.

Unless the sole reason you're voting for the UCP is because you have backwards social beliefs. Then sure, I get it. But they spend more, waste more, and do more damage to both private and public industry than the NDP did. Their budgets are worse, our services are worse, we have literally gained nothing from their governance and would be in grave danger as a province had oil not come back up. Every "bad" thing the NDP did the UCP engineered to be significantly worse.

It'd be nice if people would stop pretending otherwise.

Both suck, as I said, I would prefer to vote for another party. The NDP ran counter my interests (not financial interests for you gordonblue)



What did I not like about the NDP? Bill 6, castle provincial park, bighorn provincial park proposal ( both significantly affect outdoors men, hunters and recreation) While agreeing a management plan was needed. Did not like the implementation of the climate action plan. Soft on federal government overreach.

What I like about the NDP- allocated funding for healthcare and the cancer centre.

What concerns me going forward? Federal government overreach, bill C-21 , a laundry list of federal government issues that I dont expect the NDP based on their history to resist or fight.



Lets not forget the UCP had their own issues to deal with much like Notley had low oil prices being driven by external pressures.

I dont think there is a perfect party for my beliefs. Hell, I have voted Alberta party, NDP party , wildrose, and conservative. I have yet to vote UCP so im going to try that this time.

In the end of day, I really could not care less about your opinions about me or what my beliefs are, backwards or forwards, not everyone has to fit in your box of preconceived stereotypes.

[AFireInside]

Originally Posted by StickMan

A few reminders:

NDP appointed anti-oil activist Tzeporah Berman and Ed Whittingham, both enemies of Alberta’s oil and gas industry to oversee it, regulate it and advise on it.

NDP 6 month oil royalty review that created uncertainty in the industry and accomplished nothing.

NDP implemented carbon tax that they didn't campaign on and made everything more expensive.

When NDP took power in 2015, Alberta's debt was $11.9 billion, by 2019 it was $85.9 billion and climbing. In 2015 interest payments were under $800 million a year. When NDP left office, interest payments were over $2.3 billion.

The NDP drove up the debt, drove away businesses, implemented new taxes, raised corporate/individual taxes, and cost hundreds of thousands of jobs. Alberta was a complete mess after only 4 years.

The biggest issue here is that oil prices tanked which had nothing to do with the NDP.

The UCP have a larger budget going forward than the NDP did. You must hate that. Except oil prices recovered so it's less of an issue

Your arguments are silly and you know it. The NDP did a royalty review and decided against it, that's what I expect from my political leaders, make good decisions based on the info they have.

Literally everything is more expensive under the UCP. Insurance, utilities, school fees, etc. The NDP didn't chase away any businesses. Are you upset that Husky left after the UCP gave them 100's of millions in tax cuts. Guess the UCP chased away business too.

All your complaints apply to the UCP too an even greater degree. Bizarre reasoning.

[StickMan]

Originally Posted by AFireInside

Except Notley has come out and disagreed with the federal government NDP several times.

Just a few months ago she came out and said that the federal emissions target set by the federal gov and federal NDP are wrong.

The Alberta NDP are pretty much in line with the PC party of the 80s at this point.

She can say whatever she wants to trick people into voting for her, but the reality is that she answers to Jameet/Trudeau.

It is the way the ndp is structured, she can't change it.

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by StickMan

She can say whatever she wants to trick people into voting for her, but the reality is that she answers to Jameet/Trudeau.

It is the way the ndp is structured, she can't change it.

Prove it.

[aaronck]

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

Prove it.

He can't/ won't is my guess

[Yamer]

The absurdity of percolating grey matter over the vapid musings of a user literally named StickMan should not be lost on anyone.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by StickMan

A few reminders:

NDP appointed anti-oil activist Tzeporah Berman and Ed Whittingham, both enemies of Alberta’s oil and gas industry to oversee it, regulate it and advise on it.

NDP 6 month oil royalty review that created uncertainty in the industry and accomplished nothing.

NDP implemented carbon tax that they didn't campaign on and made everything more expensive.

When NDP took power in 2015, Alberta's debt was $11.9 billion, by 2019 it was $85.9 billion and climbing. In 2015 interest payments were under $800 million a year. When NDP left office, interest payments were over $2.3 billion.

The NDP drove up the debt, drove away businesses, implemented new taxes, raised corporate/individual taxes, and cost hundreds of thousands of jobs. Alberta was a complete mess after only 4 years.

I'm reposting verbatim what I had in this thread a while back to address your bolded point.

TLDR: Complaining about a royalty review is at best misguided. Specifically saying "It accomplished nothing" shows you don't know much if anything about it:



I've had this discussion a million times.
But what was so bad about the royalty review?

We ended up with a royalty structure that just about everyone agrees is better for both industry and the government.

So I guess it's the timing that was so bad?
That's such a disingenuous argument. There is never a good time for a royalty review.

If prices are good, people will complain that with prices so high, any uncertainty will chase investment out of the province because with such high prices, money can be made anywhere.
If prices are bad, people will complain that with prices so low, any uncertainty will chase investment out of the province because with such low prices, it's just creating too much risk.

So one party's solution was to bite the bullet, listen to experts and implement a royalty regime that is much better for the province and producers in the long run (the benefits have been clear both when prices were high, and when they crashed during the pandemic).

The other party wanted to stick with an outdate royalty regime that would have cost the province money during the high price era, and would have absolutely killed what little work was getting done during the pandemic (low price era)

So you want to penalize the the NDP for having the guts to make a tough decision that ultimately benefited everyone in the province (including the oil and gas producers that the NDP apparently hates and want to drive out of business)?
Not only that, you want to use that as justification for voting for the party that wouldn't have done anything and would have left us in a much worse spot today?

Make no mistake, a large part of the boom in Royalty Revenue that the UCP is currently suckling off of to buy votes, and use to claim they are the last bastion of the mythical "Fiscal Conservatism" only exists because the NDP did the actual hard work to make that possible.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by shotinthebacklund

Both suck, as I said, I would prefer to vote for another party. The NDP ran counter my interests (not financial interests for you gordonblue)



What did I not like about the NDP? Bill 6, castle provincial park, bighorn provincial park proposal ( both significantly affect outdoors men, hunters and recreation) While agreeing a management plan was needed. Did not like the implementation of the climate action plan. Soft on federal government overreach.

What I like about the NDP- allocated funding for healthcare and the cancer centre.

What concerns me going forward? Federal government overreach, bill C-21 , a laundry list of federal government issues that I dont expect the NDP based on their history to resist or fight.



Lets not forget the UCP had their own issues to deal with much like Notley had low oil prices being driven by external pressures.

I dont think there is a perfect party for my beliefs. Hell, I have voted Alberta party, NDP party , wildrose, and conservative. I have yet to vote UCP so im going to try that this time.

In the end of day, I really could not care less about your opinions about me or what my beliefs are, backwards or forwards, not everyone has to fit in your box of preconceived stereotypes.

Can you show some sort of material proof that the UCP has acted in a way and gotten results that support your beliefs and interests?

Do you think it's fair for someone to question how sensible you are if you're voting just to "try" to vote for a different party instead of basing it on anything material?

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Nobody who hated the NDP government can say with a straight face that the UCP hasn't been worse. You can say both suck, you can say you don't want to vote for anyone, but if the NDP ran counter to your interests then voting for the UCP makes you dishonest.

Unless the sole reason you're voting for the UCP is because you have backwards social beliefs. Then sure, I get it. But they spend more, waste more, and do more damage to both private and public industry than the NDP did. Their budgets are worse, our services are worse, we have literally gained nothing from their governance and would be in grave danger as a province had oil not come back up. Every "bad" thing the NDP did the UCP engineered to be significantly worse.

It'd be nice if people would stop pretending otherwise.

I don't think they're pretending. They are just stupid.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by StickMan

The reason to vote ucp is because there is no other choice. NDP is not an option based on past performance and Jagmeet/Trudeau connection. I would love another option.

Past performance how? It turned into pretty steady leadership with a lot of good outcomes.

Jagmeet/Trudeau connection how? The fact that she is independent of both of them, but is willing to work with the federal government to get what we need/want? Beats the UCP approach of screaming bloody murder and not ever getting anything done.
One approach gets TMX built, and oil flowing to the coast. The other wastes $1.6 Billion on a pipeline to nowhere, and delays getting federal money for cheap child care.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Yamer

The absurdity of percolating grey matter over the vapid musings of a user literally named StickMan should not be lost on anyone.

It's nice that it's as easy as just copy and pasting an old post.

I really feel like trolls (in general) have lost their way. The quality is just way down.

[StickMan]

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

Prove it.

NDP charter, the NDP must “conduct itself in general consistency with the social democratic principles of the (federal) New Democratic Party of Canada.”

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by StickMan

NDP charter, the NDP must “conduct itself in general consistency with the social democratic principles of the (federal) New Democratic Party of Canada.”

What are social democratic principles in your mind?

[shotinthebacklund]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Can you show some sort of material proof that the UCP has acted in a way and gotten results that support your beliefs and interests?

Do you think it's fair for someone to question how sensible you are if you're voting just to "try" to vote for a different party instead of basing it on anything material?

You are being intentionally obtuse, Use one word from my post and formulate a snide answer. At least you stay true to character.

[StickMan]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

What are social democratic principles in your mind?

That basically means that the provincial and federal parties need to be in agreement on everything.

"Unlike most other Canadian federal parties, the NDP is integrated with its provincial and territorial parties.

Holding membership of a provincial or territorial section of the NDP includes automatic membership in the federal party, and this precludes a person from being a member of different parties at the federal and provincial levels."

membership declaration.

"I hereby apply for membership in the New Democratic Party of Canada and the NDP in the province/territory of my residence where applicable. I promise to abide by the Constitution, policies and principles of the NDP both federally and provincially/territorially. I hereby state that I am not a member nor supporter of any other federal political party, nor a member or supporter of any other provincial or territorial party where there is a provincial or territorial NDP."

The NDP is different then any other party as far as integration with the federal party.

[woob]

Look, I'm no Trudeau fan nor Singh, but if I had to choose between a Danielle Smith led UCP party and a Rachel Notley led Alberta NDP party that might have some direction from a Jagmeet/Trudeau coalition, I'd still choose Alberta NDP.

But thankfully I don't drink the koolaid, and know I don't have to worry about this.