Canadian Federal Politics Thread v5

[GGG]

Originally Posted by belsarius

Inflation over the past 3 years has been 13.5%. Asking for 13.5% over 3 more years basically is asking for wages to be stable instead of taking a cut. Doesn't seem too unreasonable to me.

That’s alsways the challenge with these contracts. Should they make up for historical inflation or should they be relatively steady. I rather see 2.5% regardless of inflation / current economic conditions then trying to match what just happened.

From 2000-now what have their raises been like? Had it followed inflation?

[belsarius]

Originally Posted by GGG

That’s alsways the challenge with these contracts. Should they make up for historical inflation or should they be relatively steady. I rather see 2.5% regardless of inflation / current economic conditions then trying to match what just happened.

From 2000-now what have their raises been like? Had it followed inflation?

They should absolutely start at historical inflation and work up from there. For the last three years their wages were static based on the last contract. Since then their purchasing power has decreased by 13.5%. Anything less than that means a pay cut, anything more is a pay raise. As it stands with these contracts they will always be behind because they won't get any raises until the next one, so even if inflation drops to 2.5%, they are taking a pay cut of 2.5% every year until the next contract.

Steady pay is matching inflation.

Edit: So I need to clarify a little bit, I have only been going on the CRA contract which had a last economic adjustment of 1.35% in 2020. This is why I am putting all inflation together. I have been informed that some other divisions like SSO had pay grids up until this year which included their economic raises plus it sounds like a 1 time adjustment of 5% in 2021. I believe that these should be counted against inflation when looking at a steady contract - so I agree with you that a 2.5% (it looks like closer to 1.5%) for economic adjustments make sense for current contracts, and the next one should top up the difference. CRA just happens to have had nothing since 2020.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by jayswin

You realize that the US and Canada are two different countries wth two different legal and political systems, right? It seems to be a point lost more and more on right wing Canadians since the pandemic.

edit: saw your last response

And it's a point lost by left-wing Canadians every single election since... 1993?

[Derek Sutton]

Not a union guy by any stretch, but the way the government continuously throws money around, these proposed wage increases are miniscule to government spending. Not only that, the MP's themselves just got a pay raise on April 1st, so government has no legs to stand on regarding wages.

One big problem with PSAC is that having a national pay scale, in relation to cost of living is terrible. Someone living and working at the passport office in Toronto is being paid the same as the one working in the Medicine Hat office.

[you&me]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

Geez I guess their screwed then eh?

Union math doesn’t usually include members not actually on strike.

Try to keep up. Seek help from Me&you if you’re having trouble

Sorry, this has essentially zero impact on me, so I haven't been following closely, but what I have read are things like:

CBC
Chris Aylward, national president for the Public Service Alliance of Canada (PSAC), made the comments in an interview with CBC News on the fifth day of a national strike involving more than 155,000 federal public servants who are members of PSAC.

So how many members are actually on strike? 'Cause when CBC says "a national strike involving more than 155,000", it sounds like 155,000 people are on strike... at 75 bucks a day per member, $200mm will last about 2 weeks...

What's the real, proper, union math on this?

[Fuzz]

100,000:

The approximate number of PSAC workers who signed in to a picket line on Wednesday.

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...by-the-numbers


Presumably around 100k?

[timun]

Originally Posted by GordonBlue

regarding the strike.
For pay, they're asking for 12% over 3 years and the government is offering 9%?

Strictly looking at pay, I think 9% is pretty fair.
I don't know what else is a stumbling block in the negotiations, but to me striking over that 3% is greedy. (again, just my opinion.)

They're asking for 13.5% over three years, not 12%.

Originally Posted by Ironhorse

After multiple pay cuts and a ~1% raise since 2015, I’d be ecstatic with a 9% raise over 3 years. What kind of fantasy world does the PSAC live in?

Why have you stayed at the job you have if you've taken "multiple pay cuts and a ~1% raise since 2015"?

I averaged ~3.2% y/y from 2012 to a couple years ago; I'd have been looking to jump ship if I got anything less.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by timun

They're asking for 13.5% over three years, not 12%.




Why have you stayed at the job you have if you've taken "multiple pay cuts and a ~1% raise since 2015"?

I averaged ~3.2% y/y from 2012 to a couple years ago; I'd have been looking to jump ship if I got anything less.

Then they should behave like a normal worker and jump ####... Come on, the actual perks of being a unionized public service worker go beyond pay: below average productivity, lots of holidays, indexed defined benefit pensions.

[you&me]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...by-the-numbers


Presumably around 100k?

Thanks.

Lucky for them, that big ol' $200mm warchest will now last almost 4 weeks.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

One big problem with PSAC is that having a national pay scale, in relation to cost of living is terrible. Someone living and working at the passport office in Toronto is being paid the same as the one working in the Medicine Hat office.

I haven’t gone through their collective agreement so I can’t say for sure but in my experience typically notional contracts have pay scales set by province, so while the pay increases are generally the same percentage across the board the starting points to which those increases are being applied to are different.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by you&me

Thanks.

Lucky for them, that big ol' $200mm warchest will now last almost 4 weeks.

You’re still wrong, have you considered asking more questions to try and educate yourself on how strike pay works so that multiple attempts at gotcha moments don’t blow up in your face?

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by belsarius

Inflation over the past 3 years has been 13.5%. Asking for 13.5% over 3 more years basically is asking for wages to be stable instead of taking a cut. Doesn't seem too unreasonable to me.

To be honest, part of my thinking why 9% is more than fair is I'm one of those people who haven't gotten any raise in quite a few years. So with inflation the way it is, even 9% would be a massive godsend.

It's not always about the money. Part of the reason I think it might be reasonable to accept 9% is government benefits. That adds what, about 25% value to what they earn?

If their benefit package is going to be maintained, there's massive value to keep in mind.

A 9% raise is pretty good if their benefits have also been maintained at the same level.

to Timun. I can't speak for anyone else, but I stay at the job I have as I really don't have the professional skill set to get a comparable job somewhere else, let alone one for more money.
Plus my job has good benefits and a pension plan.
Some of the fault is mine for not working to develop my skill set, but I'd prefer to not get into why that is.
timun

[you&me]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

You’re still wrong, have you considered asking more questions to try and educate yourself on how strike pay works so that multiple attempts at gotcha moments don’t blow up in your face?

I'm going to make your day:

Please iggy, talk to me about union strike pay. Please explain to me what I've read; that each striking member gets $75/day that they're on the picket line... How exactly does that work?

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by you&me

I'm going to make your day:

Sorry to disappoint but I don’t rely on others to make my day for me

Please iggy, talk to me about union strike pay. Please explain to me what I've read; that each striking member gets $75/day that they're on the picket line... How exactly does that work?

Pretty much as you’ve put it there. It’s your assumptions of how many people in a 100k unit are actually picketing everyday and for how long they’ll be doing so that are where your math gets a little over simplified. You’re also still missing the subtle joke in my original post that you quoted but frankly at this juncture it’s more entertaining for me to watch you continue to try and grandstand than it would be to explain it to you so I’m in a bit of a dilemma.

I’m surprised that you want to talk about Unions but not multiple user accounts that have very similar unique names but oh well.

[you&me]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

Sorry to disappoint but I don’t rely on others to make my day for me



Pretty much as you’ve put it there. It’s your assumptions of how many people in a 100k unit are actually picketing everyday and for how long they’ll be doing so that are where your math gets a little over simplified. You’re also still missing the subtle joke in my original post that you quoted but frankly at this juncture it’s more entertaining for me to watch you continue to try and grandstand than it would be to explain it to you so I’m in a bit of a dilemma.

I’m surprised that you want to talk about Unions but not multiple user accounts that have very similar unique names but oh well.

No, I got the reference in your initial post. For someone with such disdain for "gotcha" attempts, you seem to bring it up a lot.

FWIW, I don't remember exactly what happened with my username(s), but do recall it was something silly like I forgot the first account even existed...

Edit - for clarity (and my own curiosity), I looked it up. The original account was created in 2010 and has one post in 2019; this account (you&me) was created in 2017 and has more posts than I'd care to admit. I don't remember, but if I had to guess, I probably logged in on a new device in 2019, mistakenly using the previous username and posted before I realized / noticed / cared. Hopefully you never have to deal with the dishonour of posting under oi_iggy

Well, that was a fun morning. I want to thank you, iggy - I really got a feel for what it would be like to be on "strike"

[timun]

Originally Posted by peter12

Then they should behave like a normal worker and jump ####... Come on, the actual perks of being a unionized public service worker go beyond pay: below average productivity, lots of holidays, indexed defined benefit pensions.

Have you considered that a lot of federal government workers have left?

The federal workers I've dealt with in a professional capacity are generally just as overworked and underpaid as any private sector client I deal with. I have looked at job postings to fill positions at PSPC in particular, and the pay was laughably low for the level of experience they were looking for.

"Lots of holidays"? Depends on the particular agency in question I suppose, I don't know the ins and outs of all of the collective bargaining agreements but generally the people I've dealt with get one extra stat holiday (Easter Monday; they also get Truth and Reconciliation Day, but don't get Family Day in February so it works out to one extra day), get three weeks of paid sick leave annually (I get two weeks), get two weeks' paid vacation time (I get four; I haven't had less than three in 10+ years, but then I don't come close to using it...).

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

Not a union guy by any stretch, but the way the government continuously throws money around, these proposed wage increases are miniscule to government spending. Not only that, the MP's themselves just got a pay raise on April 1st, so government has no legs to stand on regarding wages.

One big problem with PSAC is that having a national pay scale, in relation to cost of living is terrible. Someone living and working at the passport office in Toronto is being paid the same as the one working in the Medicine Hat office.

The problem is that they're not just miniscule though. There is data showing that we have more and more public servants in this country and the productivity is less. "We're" paying an increased amount for that also. There was a piece in the Globe and Mail this weekend that outlined that, and also the fact that a lot of these public servants are making more than their private counterparts. There's really not a lot of rationale for that. They've got greater job security, pensions and benefits, and all of the trappings that come with government work in general, so why are they being paid more and demanding larger raises?

And the 13.5% request is not the full picture, is it? (genuine question). I thought that CRA workers were looking for 20%?

[timun]

Originally Posted by GordonBlue

to Timun. I can't speak for anyone else, but I stay at the job I have as I really don't have the professional skill set to get a comparable job somewhere else, let alone one for more money.
Plus my job has good benefits and a pension plan.
Some of the fault is mine for not working to develop my skill set, but I'd prefer to not get into why that is.

That's unfortunate and I don't mean to pick on you or Ironhorse, but frankly your earlier comment about PSAC seeming "greedy" comes across as "crabs-in-a-bucket mentality": if you don't get a raise, no one should get one.

I'm not saying that's what you mean, but I hope you understand how someone such as myself could perceive it that way.


I know a lot of people who believe the federal public services is full of a bunch of overpaid dog-####ers with gold-plated benefits and pensions, but my experience is that's not the case. The most spoiled and entitled people I've ever dealt with have been white-collar private sector workers in one particular industry.

[Monahammer]

Every day, we march closer towards this prescient depiction by the Simpsons of Canada's rightful place on the global stage:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpVagGj6ct0

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by GGG

That’s alsways the challenge with these contracts. Should they make up for historical inflation or should they be relatively steady. I rather see 2.5% regardless of inflation / current economic conditions then trying to match what just happened.

From 2000-now what have their raises been like? Had it followed inflation?

Their pay increases over the last decade have been right at the level of inflation (about 2% a year on average). So I don't think 4.5% a year for 2021, 2022, and 2023 is out of line given the CPI increases in those years:

2021: 4.8%
2022: 6.3%
2023: ~3% range probably?