Sutter is the problem

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by flames_fan_down_under

I really struggle with Sutter as the coach of the Flames.

On one hand he is basically the only coach that this team has had in the last 30ish years that has consistently delivered decent results. The cup run, division titles, the playoff round win last year. There just is no one else in this organization that has his resume, accolades, and most importantly Stanley Cup wins. I know that Darryl has forgotten more about hockey than I will ever know. He supported pride day, he seems like a really good dad to Chris, he speaks thoughtfully on Truth and Reconciliation. I know there is a good and decent man in there.

But man he is just such an ornery S.O.B. sometimes it makes it hard to support the guy. And to think that his style and temperament pushed away Brad frustrates me to no end. He does not really give off the "collaborative approach" vibe that I think teams need nowadays. I agree with Bingo when he says he gets too caught up in trying to "stick it" to someone. Sure he has been hired to coach, he sets the line up, so in essence he has a right to defend his decisions, but it just seems like everything is done as a middle finger to the media, or the fans, or even conventional wisdom, like not using Toffoli in a shootout with the season on the line. The insistence on rolling four lines no matter what is also a bit of a frustrating as well.

I don't know. If players and now GMs are leaving because of him that is not a very good sign.

To be fair, Sutter may be part of the reason Treliving left but it's evident that he's not the only reason. That said I have a big problem with the fact that he hammers down this team concept to the players but doesn't walk the walk. Since he came back he's done the following;

-Told the media over and over what a talentless team the GM built.
-The “Hopefully he has more energy in his 500th game than he did in his 499th game” comment to soil what should be a feel good moment for the player and organization.
-The dumb "He had to take a ####" comment about Huberdeau leaving the bench during a game.
-His bizarre disdain for Matthew Phillips.
-The bizarre Pelletier meltdown in the media and handling of the player when he was initially called up.
-Poor handling of ice time this season with the 4th line playing far too much in key moments in games.
-Poor handling of the goaltending in that he kept riding a goaltender that was struggling while the backup goaltender was winning more games.
-Was barely on speaking terms with his boss by the end of the season.
-Alienated players in the locker room when it's his job to properly manage the personalities, not force them out the door.

Flames fans need to be honest with themselves as for years we mocked McTavish and Lowe for putting the Oilers in a bad light. Well Darryl Sutter has put the Flames in a bad light. It's probably not a stretch to say that several NHL players around the league have told their agents that they want no part of Calgary and prospects in the upcoming draft would rather that other teams draft them over the Flames. The man has done a lot of good things for the organization but it's really, really time for him to move on and retire as he's kind of lost the plot here as times change and he hasn't, nor does he want to.

[Inglewood Jack]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

The man has done a lot of good things for the organization but it's really, really time for him to move on and retire as he's kind of lost the plot here as times change and he hasn't, nor does he want to.

for me he's now tipped the scales where since he first joined the organization in 2002, the negative now outweighs the positive. the banners he helped us raise for 04, 06, and 22 will always be there but I don't see any truly successful future for the Flames that has him as part of it.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

The man has done a lot of good things for the organization but it's really, really time for him to move on and retire as he's kind of lost the plot here as times change and he hasn't, nor does he want to.

This is the worst part to me.

He clearly does still have a mind for the on-ice aspects of the game, especially at 5v5.

But he's just unwilling (or probably more unable) to soften his approach a little off the ice, and in terms of player deployment to evolve to where the game is heading.

I actually think the Sutter system but with more speed and youth would still be successful (and even then that's where LA was successful when they won cups) but instead he's fixated on veterans now.

I sometimes wonder if he realizes that his most successful seasons have actually been with more youthful teams. Look at his three teams that went to the finals, and their average age and the players on the roster under 24 that played at least 40 games in the regular season+playoffs)

03-04 Flames: 26.7 (13th Youngest; Under 24: Lombardi, Kobasew, Saprykin, Leopold, Regehr, Ference)
11-12 Kings: 26.7 (13th Youngest; Under 24: Clifford, Doughty, Voynov, King, Nolan, Kopitar, Johnson, Martinez, Lewis)
13-14 Kings: 27.1 (14th Youngest; Under 24: Toffoli, Pearson, Clifford, Doughty, Voynov, King, Muzzin, Nolan)

When Sutter is actually forced to play his system with young players it's when he has his most success.

When he has old teams... that's when he struggles.

16-17 Kings: 28.3 (Oldest team in the league, Under 24: Nick Shore, Pearson, Toffoli, Forbort, Gravel)
22-23 Flames: 28.7 (26th Youngest; Under 24: Dube, Ruzicka)

It's like you almost need the GM to have enough power to save Sutter from himself when it comes to having all these veterans in the lineup.

[Hockey_Ninja]

It’s kinda crazy how similar Sutter’s current tenure on the Flames looks to how his last tenure ended. I guess time really is a flat circle

[NegativeSpace]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

...
-Was barely on speaking terms with his boss by the end of the season.
-Alienated players in the locker room when it's his job to properly manage the personalities, not force them out the door.
...

I know that it is fashionable to pile onto Sutter at the moment amongst the fan base and there are lots of good reasons to do so at the moment with the how the team performed. I haven't heard the bold before, so can you refer me to where that was reported?

Sutter has never been good with the media. So, his responses are not a surprise to me at least. I have some of the same concerns as you do in terms of line usage and who was playing or not. However, those issues concern me less than the woeful powerplay or the brain-farts resulting in Grade A chances. Those two alone left me wondering about the overall strategy.

The goaltending was the worst issue this year and neither guy was great in the crease, so I can't really fault him for that.

[belsarius]

Originally Posted by NegativeSpace

I know that it is fashionable to pile onto Sutter at the moment amongst the fan base and there are lots of good reasons to do so at the moment with the how the team performed. I haven't heard the bold before, so can you refer me to where that was reported?

Sutter has never been good with the media. So, his responses are not a surprise to me at least. I have some of the same concerns as you do in terms of line usage and who was playing or not. However, those issues concern me less than the woeful powerplay or the brain-farts resulting in Grade A chances. Those two alone left me wondering about the overall strategy.

The goaltending was the worst issue this year and neither guy was great in the crease, so I can't really fault him for that.

Except he had the best goaltender not in the NHL playing for his farm team. I guess you could say Tre blocked Wolf from coming up so he could continue to shine in the AHL - but really I have a hard time believing that if Sutter had said "These two aren't getting the job done, lets give the kid a couple games" that it wouldn't have happened.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by NegativeSpace

I know that it is fashionable to pile onto Sutter at the moment amongst the fan base and there are lots of good reasons to do so at the moment with the how the team performed. I haven't heard the bold before, so can you refer me to where that was reported?

It was reported by Elliotte Friedman this week.

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

It was reported by Elliotte Friedman this week.

Who's mug is that as your profile picture? Is that Edwards? If so... why?

[Dan403]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

This is the worst part to me.

He clearly does still have a mind for the on-ice aspects of the game, especially at 5v5.

But he's just unwilling (or probably more unable) to soften his approach a little off the ice, and in terms of player deployment to evolve to where the game is heading.

I actually think the Sutter system but with more speed and youth would still be successful (and even then that's where LA was successful when they won cups) but instead he's fixated on veterans now.

I sometimes wonder if he realizes that his most successful seasons have actually been with more youthful teams. Look at his three teams that went to the finals, and their average age and the players on the roster under 24 that played at least 40 games in the regular season+playoffs)

03-04 Flames: 26.7 (13th Youngest; Under 24: Lombardi, Kobasew, Saprykin, Leopold, Regehr, Ference)
11-12 Kings: 26.7 (13th Youngest; Under 24: Clifford, Doughty, Voynov, King, Nolan, Kopitar, Johnson, Martinez, Lewis)
13-14 Kings: 27.1 (14th Youngest; Under 24: Toffoli, Pearson, Clifford, Doughty, Voynov, King, Muzzin, Nolan)

When Sutter is actually forced to play his system with young players it's when he has his most success.

When he has old teams... that's when he struggles.

16-17 Kings: 28.3 (Oldest team in the league, Under 24: Nick Shore, Pearson, Toffoli, Forbort, Gravel)
22-23 Flames: 28.7 (26th Youngest; Under 24: Dube, Ruzicka)

It's like you almost need the GM to have enough power to save Sutter from himself when it comes to having all these veterans in the lineup.

We need a GM with the balls to force Sutter to play younger players.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Dan403

We need a GM with the balls to force Sutter to play younger players.

You couldn't force Lucic off the roster - the only way would be to move him and he had a NMC. Aside from him, the only older player you'd drop would be Lewis and Lewis was good. Ritchie (before and after the trade) as well, I guess but I'm not too fussed about 4th line winger roles.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Dan403

We need a GM with the balls to force Sutter to play younger players.

I am not so sure Sutter will be back next year even with Tre leaving.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Hockey_Ninja

It’s kinda crazy how similar Sutter’s current tenure on the Flames looks to how his last tenure ended. I guess time really is a flat circle

Our fanbase went from 2004-2010 in less than a calendar year. The best Flames team in decades to the most frustrating season maybe ever.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by activeStick

Who's mug is that as your profile picture? Is that Edwards? If so... why?

Why not? He likes to pull the organization strings from behind the curtains and pay others to face the tough questions about why this organization is a mess which is largely his own doing. I'm just putting out the face of the micromanager that hides in the shadows.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by NegativeSpace

The goaltending was the worst issue this year and neither guy was great in the crease, so I can't really fault him for that.

I agree the goaltending was a huge problem, but the 1,000 pound gorilla in the room was the OT record. The team never practiced 3-on-3 or shoot-outs like they mattered. For a team that was locked in so many close games you would think the team would prepare for the inevitability of playing 3-on-3 or going to the shootout. The failure there is completely at his feet and was out of sheer stubbornness. The game has passed him by and that is the ultimate proof of it.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Why not? He likes to pull the organization strings from behind the curtains and pay others to face the tough questions about why this organization is a mess which is largely his own doing. I'm just putting out the face of the micromanager that hides in the shadows.

Nawwww, you're just trolling people with that stupid picture. We know who runs the team and who the majority owner is. You're using that avatar to get a rise out of people and get attention. So far, it's working.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

I agree the goaltending was a huge problem, but the 1,000 pound gorilla in the room was the OT record. The team never practiced 3-on-3 or shoot-outs like they mattered. For a team that was locked in so many close games you would think the team would prepare for the inevitability of playing 3-on-3 or going to the shootout. The failure there is completely at his feet and was out of sheer stubbornness. The game has passed him by and that is the ultimate proof of it.

Was is Keenan who didn't practice the power play?

Where is he again??

History - wash/rinse/repeat?

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Nawwww, you're just trolling people with that stupid picture. We know who runs the team and who the majority owner is. You're using that avatar to get a rise out of people and get attention. So far, it's working.

If I'm trolling anyone it's Murray. Plenty here don't even know the man's face as demonstrated by some of the responses since I changed it.

[Mattman]

Man this is depressing. Just take me back to a time where we had Ken King and Brian Burke in the office

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

I agree the goaltending was a huge problem, but the 1,000 pound gorilla in the room was the OT record. The team never practiced 3-on-3 or shoot-outs like they mattered. For a team that was locked in so many close games you would think the team would prepare for the inevitability of playing 3-on-3 or going to the shootout. The failure there is completely at his feet and was out of sheer stubbornness. The game has passed him by and that is the ultimate proof of it.

I'm not really sure the game has passed him by - his 5v5 structure and overall mind for the game are fine.

The problem is he's too stubborn to make small changes to his approach to evolve around things like playing young players, and practicing things like 3v3.

Honestly in the end the problem lies with Murray Edwards. When Sutter has too much power within an organization that's when things become an issue. In the end Edwards gave Sutter more power than Treliving, and that is what allows him to be so stubborn at times.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I'm not really sure the game has passed him by - his 5v5 structure and overall mind for the game are fine.

The problem is he's too stubborn to make small changes to his approach to evolve around things like playing young players, and practicing things like 3v3.

Honestly in the end the problem lies with Murray Edwards. When Sutter has too much power within an organization that's when things become an issue. In the end Edwards gave Sutter more power than Treliving, and that is what allows him to be so stubborn at times.

I do think some of his tactics are fine, but the majority of them in a 4-3 league don't work.

Its starting to become evident its a star driven league and a offensive league. Its not your roll 4 lines type of league with zero regard of matchups.

His style just doesn't translate with the players of today. Its not just tactics but his refusal to play young players and overall how he treats people.