[GT] Garbage Bag Day - Player Availability starts at 10:15 am

[TheSquatch]

That's just it, who knows if there's a team with a GM drooling for a low-valued Huberdeau or (even better) a Kadri..... with those huge cap hits, it's hard to imagine.

If either Backlund or Lindholm want out, this team is going to have a hell of a hard time for a few years.

So I don't suspect there's a concrete plan about any of this - it will depend on who stays, who goes, who re-signs, market pressures... lots of factors.

[GioforPM]

I always laugh when someone says “I’ll drive them to the airport myself” like it’s a sign of a great desire to see someone leave. So you will do as much as a 30 dollar Uber driver. Wow.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I always laugh when someone says “I’ll drive them to the airport myself” like it’s a sign of a great desire to see someone leave. So you will do as much as a 30 dollar Uber driver. Wow.

It's the idea of expediting the process before anyone can reconsider or back out, not saving the team $30. It's not meant to be literal.

[DeluxeMoustache]

^ Strange brew, I’ve heard all of the high danger shot stats

It clearly wasn’t good enough though, right?

The question is WHY?

The things I am talking about don’t dismiss high danger counts, just looking to connect the things that happened, and the available data, with the clearly unacceptable results

Are the Flames all really bad at shooting, or is there something advanced stats don’t capture?

I gave my view to Bingo, and when he pushed, I documented every shot the Flames took the next game, and described what the goalie was called upon to do

His first response? “I’m not going to read that essay”

The large contingent of fans saying that the hockey is high volume low quality are not wrong

Specific measurable events preceding the shot are how shots are classified.
The defensive posture, the pressure the shooter is under, the actual quality of the shot taken / where it goes on the goalie (directly related to shooter skill and time and space) is absolutely not factored in

Nobody has an easy way to measure those things, so they aren’t available to refine the models

It’s not rocket science. And 31st in cross o zone passes is a huge indicator

[TheSquatch]

I think people are confused because "they system worked" and "the team won" are not the same thing.

The system worked, and the Flames were abysmally unlucky with posts and had sub-par goaltending. So they lost close games too often.

You don't even need metrics to see "what happened".

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Yeah I watched the team this year, thanks.

The Flames in 5on5 situations:

8th in high danger shots for.
I believe they were among the league leaders in shots off the rush, but please correct me if I am wrong.
And top 10 in odd man rushes for.
And top 10 in zone possession time.

But this is all from memory though so maybe I'm wrong.

Yes the lack of offense from cross ice passes is a problem. I'm not sure that is from coaching though. And I don't see the direct correlation between that stat and chasing the puck. Would like you to share some more data points besides that one.

31st in cross ice passes and #1 in rush shots and #19 in rush chances tells you everything he was just saying.

They aren't a rush and create team which would allow guys like Huberdeau to flourish. They get it in and fire away on net as soon as possible and hope to grind in a rebound that usually isn't available because they are shooting into crests and gloves. The opposition froze 25% of our shots.

The D had 3 plays rush in shoot it on net from distance skate around the boards and pass back to the point or ring it around the boards for another useless point shot.

Why did other coaches openly say we don't care about the Flames shot volume they aren't dangerous.

No team cared about the shot volume system because it was easy saves

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by TheSquatch

I think people are confused because "they system worked" and "the team won" are not the same thing.

The system worked, and the Flames were abysmally unlucky with posts and had sub-par goaltending. So they lost close games too often.

You don't even need metrics to see "what happened".

I loathe this opinion.

No, it's not luck over the course of an 82 game season. It's a lack of skill.

It's not like the Flames set some massive new record for posts hit - last I saw the numbers, Edmonton was right there with us.

It's not luck.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

It's the idea of expediting the process before anyone can reconsider or back out, not saving the team $30. It's not meant to be literal.

Thanks tips. Still makes me laugh.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by Burning Beard

He was coming on strong the last twenty games and certainly didn't look destroyed. He looked like a guy who was putting it together under a new coach just like Johnny and Tkachuk before him

I just don’t think it’s prudent to have his contract and age around for the long term, above all.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

^ Strange brew, I’ve heard all of the high danger shot stats

It clearly wasn’t good enough though, right?

The question is WHY?

The things I am talking about don’t dismiss high danger counts, just looking to connect the things that happened, and the available data, with the clearly unacceptable results

Are the Flames all really bad at shooting, or is there something advanced stats don’t capture?

I gave my view to Bingo, and when he pushed, I documented every shot the Flames took the next game, and described what the goalie was called upon to do

His first response? “I’m not going to read that essay”

The large contingent of fans saying that the hockey is high volume low quality are not wrong

Specific measurable events preceding the shot are how shots are classified.
The defensive posture, the pressure the shooter is under, the actual quality of the shot taken / where it goes on the goalie (directly related to shooter skill and time and space) is absolutely not factored in

Nobody has an easy way to measure those things, so they aren’t available to refine the models

It’s not rocket science. And 31st in cross o zone passes is a huge indicator

So the only data point is cross ice passes. And then your personal observations. And some nebulous “ large volume of fans”. Yourself, Paulie wacknuts, and many others for sure.

I don’t see a team chasing the puck around.

I see a team without a ton of finishers. The players who declined:
Huberdeau
Lindholm - not hard to figure out why
Mangiapane - living off unsustainable shooting percentages

Other players met or exceeded their averages.

Not saying I have the answers, or that I’m even right. I’m just looking at some of the numbers that are actually out there. It’s fine if we see it differently, I won’t ask if you actually watch the games.

[chedder]

If you trade Huberdeau at this point, good luck trying to sign another star ufa in the foreseeable future.

Firing the coach, in this specific instance, is likely the way to go. I can't see Huberdeau returning to the player we thought we were getting under Sutter.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by chedder

If you trade Huberdeau at this point, good luck trying to sign another star ufa in the foreseeable future.

Is that really a thing? Are there instances of this? At the end of the day they’re still getting paid.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by chedder

If you trade Huberdeau at this point, good luck trying to sign another star ufa in the foreseeable future.

Firing the coach, in this specific instance, is likely the way to go. I can't see Huberdeau returning to the player we thought we were getting under Sutter.

Good. I hope they go into a rebuild for three or so years and don’t have to do the free agent signings to find main players.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

There's three options

1) Fire the hall of fame coach, build around the player

2) trade the star player, build around the coach's system

3) find a way to make it work with coach and player

I don't think there's an obvious answer.

The player already called it #3 in his post season interview.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

The player already called it #3 in his post season interview.

1) not sure they’d say their true feelings in public
2) I think I know the right answer but is getting established vets to play a different system (and thus not okay their game), a good idea? I don’t think it is. It’s one thing to try and mold a young player to whatever but to do this to a vet is dumb and won’t work. So they can try and compromise but you live and die with your best players and if their skill is being held back it’s useless. I think they should change their style and coach.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by bluejays

1) not sure they’d say their true feelings in public
2) I think I know the right answer but is getting established vets to play a different system (and thus not okay their game), a good idea? I don’t think it is. It’s one thing to try and mold a young player to whatever but to do this to a vet is dumb and won’t work. So they can try and compromise but you live and die with your best players and if their skill is being held back it’s useless. I think they should change their style and coach.

Listen to it. Huberdeau said he would work with Darryl over the summer to make adjustments to his game to be better next year.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

Listen to it. Huberdeau said he would work with Darryl over the summer to make adjustments to his game to be better next year.

Oh I know he said it, I just don’t think it’s fruitful. It makes sense to be defensively responsible but to not enable him to freewheel and play to his strength is holding him back. I’m sure Huberdeau understands the team and owners wants Sutter here and he’s signed long term here and needs to do it but does he truly want to? And is it putting unneeded pressure to change his game mid career? I think so.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by bluejays

Oh I know he said it, I just don’t think it’s fruitful. It makes sense to be defensively responsible but to not enable him to freewheel and play to his strength is holding him back. I’m sure Huberdeau understands the team and owners wants Sutter here and he’s signed long term here and needs to do it but does he truly want to? And is it putting unneeded pressure to change his game mid career? I think so.

If it’s not fruitful, following the chain of conversation then one of them is leaving?

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by chedder

If you trade Huberdeau at this point, good luck trying to sign another star ufa in the foreseeable future.

If I was a prospective UFA looking at the Flames, I would be more afraid of signing a long term deal if I thought I wouldn't be traded even if it wasn't working out. I guess I can see both sides.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Almost every superstar in the league is given ice time and rope to play their game especially offensively.

I didn't see coach Q go to Chicago and try to mold Kane into the next Kirk Maltby.

Some said look at Kaprizov in Minnesota he isn't playing 15 minutes a game and sits in a corner while 2 players dictate the powerplay.

When he says he's willing to work with the coach and change how he plays it's scary because Darryl doesn't deviate from his style. The owners better be ready to pay a 50-60 point player under Sutter 10.5 million.