[GT] Garbage Bag Day - Player Availability starts at 10:15 am

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Playing that way usually results in medicore results does it not?

He always talks about just making the playoffs. Everyone here all season talked about how he is some magical coach that doesn't finish high in the standings but just get in and his teams win in the playoffs.

When he came here he talked about unrealistic goals that the team and media had for the team.

Why does he always bring up the point totals for the 8th place team?

He has ALWAYS coached defense first.

700+ wins as a head coach, 2 Stanley cup rings......"mediocre"?

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Backlund was great except for the final push for the playoffs when he became a turnover machine. My problems with Backlund have always been twofold. The first is he would not be worth a damn for the first half of the year, this season he nipped that on the bud and was excellent for 95% of the year. My biggest knock on the guy though is when the pressure hits his game goes to ####. He got owned in the Colorado series. He got owned last year in the Oilers series. He was a turnover machine down the stretch this year. I get Backlund has been here a long time and there is a lot of sentimental attachment to him but I don't see him as a guy that you win when the pressure is on. The Flames should absolutely sell high on him this offseason, preferably at the draft.

No he wasn't.

He was literally the team's best forward in that series, posted a xGF% of 61.6% to back that up.

Fourth on the team in that series for five on five production / 60

That's an odd take.

[Enoch Root]

Yeah, I thought last year was Backlund's best playoff performance ever - by a wide margin. He was really good.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

So tell me how being having the most perimeter shots and the bottom of the league in rush chances cross ice plays is pressing to keep scoring?

Or is rush in shoot ring around the boards shoot get the puck frozen and start again a way to slow the game down?

That isn't pace to me that's a defensive strategy to keep the opposition as far away from your net as possible and try to grind a goal in.

We may not be locking it down but we also aren't opening it up to score the next goal.

People are caught up in the one big year from last season and not looking at his coaching career known to stifle teams and his own team by playing this way.

A high volume approach can certainly be criticized ... at least now you're dealing with actual facts.

But high volume doesn't mean zero quality. Calgary didn't avoid the opposition's net as you suggest. The Flames were 7th in slot shots five on five for example.

[Strange Brew]

Plus weren’t Flames leaders in zone entries with the puck and shots off the rush?

This idea that Sutter is coaching a dump and chase, rim the boards style of play isn’t supported IMO.

[bluejays]

Anyone here with inside info on what the Flames are discussing with respect to the direction they’ll be taking? I realize it’s early, and the paint has barely dried but I do find it very odd Treliving hasn’t been extended. I think the ramifications are that without firing him or extending him, they have no intentions of rebuilding. If they were to rebuild you’d sign him to an extension or fire him to bring in another vision but they’re doing neither so far. Very peculiar right now.

[GullFoss]

I honestly think the two biggest decisions for the GM are

1) what do you with Vladar, Marky, Wolf. Trading vladar seems to be most obvious move. But they could also move Marky. Or move none of them.

2) what do you do with Huby? There will be trade opportunities out there. Do you look at them and bring in a player better fit for the system? Or do you hope Huby is able to find his game within the system?

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

I honestly think the two biggest decisions for the GM are

1) what do you with Vladar, Marky, Wolf. Trading vladar seems to be most obvious move. But they could also move Marky. Or move none of them.

2) what do you do with Huby? There will be trade opportunities out there. Do you look at them and bring in a player better fit for the system? Or do you hope Huby is able to find his game within the system?

Definitely among the two biggest things. I think you get anything you can for Markstrom. He's been bad for a year and a half and I'm not sure there are any takers at his salary/term remaining.

Huberdeau is a must sell to get back solid value and also to get out from under that contract. He looks destroyed in this system where he has no confidence offensively. What is the team doing to address that? I don't think there will be any build around his style with Sutter, so consequently there will be no improvement from him. If you have more sample size with the same play, surely no team would take a chance at him while giving up assets. Some could argue his value isn't good now with the salary/term. I say you sell now as 8 more years of him and Kadri are terrible in a cap system going forward given their age. There is no luxury of waiting until he turns it around.

[Burning Beard]

Originally Posted by bluejays

Definitely among the two biggest things. I think you get anything you can for Markstrom. He's been bad for a year and a half and I'm not sure there are any takers at his salary/term remaining.

Huberdeau is a must sell to get back solid value and also to get out from under that contract. He looks destroyed in this system where he has no confidence offensively. What is the team doing to address that? I don't think there will be any build around his style with Sutter, so consequently there will be no improvement from him. If you have more sample size with the same play, surely no team would take a chance at him while giving up assets. Some could argue his value isn't good now with the salary/term. I say you sell now as 8 more years of him and Kadri are terrible in a cap system going forward given their age. There is no luxury of waiting until he turns it around.

He was coming on strong the last twenty games and certainly didn't look destroyed. He looked like a guy who was putting it together under a new coach just like Johnny and Tkachuk before him

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by bluejays

Definitely among the two biggest things. I think you get anything you can for Markstrom. He's been bad for a year and a half and I'm not sure there are any takers at his salary/term remaining.

Huberdeau is a must sell to get back solid value and also to get out from under that contract. He looks destroyed in this system where he has no confidence offensively. What is the team doing to address that? I don't think there will be any build around his style with Sutter, so consequently there will be no improvement from him. If you have more sample size with the same play, surely no team would take a chance at him while giving up assets. Some could argue his value isn't good now with the salary/term. I say you sell now as 8 more years of him and Kadri are terrible in a cap system going forward given their age. There is no luxury of waiting until he turns it around.

What team would take on Huberdeau's contract that he would also be willing to go to? The Flames will either bounce back with him and Kadri or they will be the tank commanders. If the Flames blow it up then him and Kadri's contracts will be done by the time it matters.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Why are we trading Huberdeau we got lucky once that a player of equal calibre was available you trade him and the skill on this team is flushed down the toilet you aren't getting equal value back.

You don't put to 115 points by mistake. It's not like he was riding McDavid or Gretzky this is a legitimate superstar.

This a star driven league now and it's about producing at a high level and we have a guy that can do that tossing him away because he was unable to adapt to a grinder system would be a stupid move.

Tkachuk and Gaudreau took less money to leave. Lindholm and Backlund might be next.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by bluejays

Anyone here with inside info on what the Flames are discussing with respect to the direction they’ll be taking? I realize it’s early, and the paint has barely dried but I do find it very odd Treliving hasn’t been extended. I think the ramifications are that without firing him or extending him, they have no intentions of rebuilding. If they were to rebuild you’d sign him to an extension or fire him to bring in another vision but they’re doing neither so far. Very peculiar right now.

OJ212 knows.

[Royle9]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Why are we trading Huberdeau we got lucky once that a player of equal calibre was available you trade him and the skill on this team is flushed down the toilet you aren't getting equal value back.

You don't put to 115 points by mistake. It's not like he was riding McDavid or Gretzky this is a legitimate superstar.

Tkachuk and Gaudreau took less money to leave. Lindholm and Backlund might be next.

This.
Huberdeau has played a high skill, east/west cross ice possession game his entire career in Florida, and they deployed a system & powerplay to fit his strengths.

Coming to Calgary he was forced into Daryl’s north/south, no creativity, high volume perimeter shooting system. Played 2nd PP for the most part and everything was through Toffoli in terms of possession in the zone.

Talk about a completely terrible utilization.
This isn’t even accounting for his mind boggling extended look with Kadri & Lucic.
This is how you take a 115 pts last year and PPG career player and destroy his confidence, asked to play a boring bland brand of perimeter low quality hockey, and boy did it show. In fact people put this blame of Huberdeau and not the coach which is funny. Oh.. and put him at RW lol woof.

Backs and Lindholm are all but gone based on those exit interviews. The flames would be stupid to try and hold onto these assets at the draft and risk getting nothing. Yea at the deadline they could, but would be nice to build a fresh team and start the season with people who want to win in Calgary.

[Hockey_Ninja]

I’m not ready to give up on Huby. If Sutter stays, both him and Huberdeau need to work together to find a way to get the most out of him

[GullFoss]

Originally Posted by Hockey_Ninja

I’m not ready to give up on Huby. If Sutter stays, both him and Huberdeau need to work together to find a way to get the most out of him

There's three options

1) Fire the hall of fame coach, build around the player

2) trade the star player, build around the coach's system

3) find a way to make it work with coach and player

I don't think there's an obvious answer.

[howard_the_duck]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

There's three options

1) Fire the hall of fame coach, build around the player

2) trade the star player, build around the coach's system

3) find a way to make it work with coach and player

I don't think there's an obvious answer.

The franchise is set to invest 10x the resources into Huby than they are Sutter. I can’t imagine they are contemplating selling him at an all-time low market value. It’d be ludicrous asset management.

HAS to be 1 or 3.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Plus weren’t Flames leaders in zone entries with the puck and shots off the rush?

This idea that Sutter is coaching a dump and chase, rim the boards style of play isn’t supported IMO.

Did you not watch the team this season?

They were leaders in all kind of shots.

But they repeatedly rang it around the boards, got it to the point, and took garbage shots into the goalie’s pads. Even got a lot of garbage shots on rebounds from the slot (battles where the opposition is forcing them in terms of time and space)

They dumped sometimes, but often just gained the line wide then put it hard along the boards. So it won’t count as a dump in because it’s dumped after gaining the line

Shot percentage was near the bottom of the league.

Stats are fine because they got lots of shots from high danger places. Often under pressure and easy stops

Well known, other coaches said it, dressed backup goalies, who ended up with great sv% way more often than not. Lots of people said it was boring hockey

They weren’t terrible offensively, middle of the pack. But they have the roster that should be top of the pack

They were 31st in cross zone passes. That is ridiculous.
Having a high skill guy go from 115 points to 55 was not unrelated to the faithful execution of the game plan

This isn’t a narrative, it’s what happened this year.

I can’t believe you are saying they didn’t ring it around the boards often and work it to the point to get traffic in front and get shots on net

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by howard_the_duck

The franchise is set to invest 10x the resources into Huby than they are Sutter. I can’t imagine they are contemplating selling him at an all-time low market value. It’d be ludicrous asset management.

HAS to be 1 or 3.

It depends on whether they think he will rebound. If there is a chance that they can flip him and not have to give up a sweetener or eat cap, then I think you have to look at that. If he has another season like this one, especially if it's with a different coach, we'll be even more screwed.

If there is a team out there that has faith in Huberdeau and the Flames can actually get a half-decent return, I would drive him to the airport myself.

[taxbuster]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

There's three options

1) Fire the hall of fame coach, build around the player

2) trade the star player, build around the coach's system

3) find a way to make it work with coach and player

I don't think there's an obvious answer.

The obvious (but possibly unattainable) answer is clearly #3.

This, however, would require a few things, some of which we can only speculate about (with the exception of Sec 214 and the OJ crowd?):
- was Sutter really giving the middle finger to Tre all season and playing to screw up by pissing off stars and young guys alike? (seems unlikely, but possible)
- did Tre ignore requests from Sutter for a particular type of player (again, seems unlikely, but they should be on the same page...)
- did Edwards stick his fat fingers in the pie and screw everything up by hiring/extending Sutter over Tre's head and causing the alleged rift?

If NONE OF THOSE ARE TRUE, then #3 is the solution.

If ANY one is...pffft....Edwards just pissed away a whole lot of dough. And time. And fans. Even if it wasn't his doing.

There really is no reason why Darryl can't make the system work for everyone, young, old, talented or workmen. Other coaches have managed.

There's no reason that Tre can't find/trade/upgrade players to fill position "close enough to" the style Darryl wants. Again, other GMs have managed.

If the relationships have broken down to the point of stupidity - which certainly appears possible - maybe all of 'em should go. Very unprofessional and egocentric.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Did you not watch the team this season?

They were leaders in all kind of shots.

But they repeatedly rang it around the boards, got it to the point, and took garbage shots into the goalie’s pads. Even got a lot of garbage shots on rebounds from the slot (battles where the opposition is forcing them in terms of time and space)

They dumped sometimes, but often just gained the line wide then put it hard along the boards. So it won’t count as a dump in because it’s dumped after gaining the line

Shot percentage was near the bottom of the league.

Stats are fine because they got lots of shots from high danger places. Often under pressure and easy stops

Well known, other coaches said it, dressed backup goalies, who ended up with great sv% way more often than not. Lots of people said it was boring hockey

They weren’t terrible offensively, middle of the pack. But they have the roster that should be top of the pack

They were 31st in cross zone passes. That is ridiculous.
Having a high skill guy go from 115 points to 55 was not unrelated to the faithful execution of the game plan

This isn’t a narrative, it’s what happened this year.

I can’t believe you are saying they didn’t ring it around the boards often and work it to the point to get traffic in front and get shots on net

Yeah I watched the team this year, thanks.

The Flames in 5on5 situations:

8th in high danger shots for.
I believe they were among the league leaders in shots off the rush, but please correct me if I am wrong.
And top 10 in odd man rushes for.
And top 10 in zone possession time.

But this is all from memory though so maybe I'm wrong.

Yes the lack of offense from cross ice passes is a problem. I'm not sure that is from coaching though. And I don't see the direct correlation between that stat and chasing the puck. Would like you to share some more data points besides that one.