I believe Jason Botterill Should Be The Flames' Next GM

[Sylvanfan]

Offer the job to Cammi Granato just to see if Ray Ferraro's head will explode.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

He’s only half way thru the deal. And in 2019 that was a lot more than it is now. The bigger point is he misjudged where the team was in giving that kind of contract.

The Skinner deal is tough to defend, but I think there are a lot of extenuating factors to consider; mainly that ownership was likely a driving force behind it, and that they were already worried about placating Eichel.

Interestingly, it started out looking really promising. In the first year of the deal the Sabres started 9-3 and Skinner had 6G 8P in those games. And then the Sabres Sabred.


I think the other question is whether BUF has been up against the cap during the deal? Thus far it probably hasn't precluded them from doing anything (aside from maybe a similar UFA overpay), and it doesn't look like they'll be tight to the cap anytime soon.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

Offer the job to Cammi Granato just to see if Ray Ferraro's head will explode.

I would be okay with the Flames being the first time to hire a female GM as that would likely mean she hasn't been overly influenced by the dinosaurs that have long run the league. Even though Treliving isn't old by GM standards he's still very old school with his fondness for defensemen and depth players. IMO you need to build around goaltending and top 6 forwards to have sustained success in a league where the goals scored/game is rising year over year. I'm so over the past few decades of Flames putting so much resources into bluelines that look good on paper but underwhelm on the ice.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

The Skinner deal is tough to defend, but I think there are a lot of extenuating factors to consider; mainly that ownership was likely a driving force behind it, and that they were already worried about placating Eichel.

Interestingly, it started out looking really promising. In the first year of the deal the Sabres started 9-3 and Skinner had 6G 8P in those games. And then the Sabres Sabred.


I think the other question is whether BUF has been up against the cap during the deal? Thus far it probably hasn't precluded them from doing anything (aside from maybe a similar UFA overpay), and it doesn't look like they'll be tight to the cap anytime soon.

Hmmmm....

The only reason Buffalo hasn't had cap issues is because they divested themselves of Eichel's big salary - a good move. and because their other players haven't proved themselves worthy of big salaries (until they left).

It's more the misreading of thw team's progress at the time which was the issue.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

I think a poll would be interesting…. Does gm go, coach, both, or neither?

If I'm betting, Sutter stays (1st year of new contract) and Treliving goes (of his own choosing).

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

I think a poll would be interesting…. Does gm go, coach, both, or neither?

I think it would be more interesting to see what fans want, not what they think will happen.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I think it would be more interesting to see what fans want, not what they think will happen.

Can ask it both ways:
- What do people think SHOULD happen
- What do people think WILL happen

And then the delta between the two is also interesting.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

If I'm betting, Sutter stays (1st year of new contract) and Treliving goes (of his own choosing).

It does appear like Treliving has one foot out the door as I don't see why else he would have been present for the entire last practice other than to soak it up and be around the team on the ice for one last time. If one of Sutter or Treliving has to go I would much rather it be Sutter but the Flames as an organization have never had a great track record of making the right decisions.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

It does appear like Treliving has one foot out the door as I don't see why else he would have been present for the entire last practice other than to soak it up and be around the team on the ice for one last time. If one of Sutter or Treliving has to go I would much rather it be Sutter but the Flames as an organization have never had a great track record of making the right decisions.

Part of my thought is that it's maybe not a Flames decision to make about Treliving. He might not even accept an offer.

[MissTeeks]

Too many threads to put this. Since we’re talking GMs.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1646553242539802624

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Hmmmm....

The only reason Buffalo hasn't had cap issues is because they divested themselves of Eichel's big salary - a good move. and because their other players haven't proved themselves worthy of big salaries (until they left).

It's more the misreading of thw team's progress at the time which was the issue.

For sure. But at the time they signed him they had:

Eichel
Dahlin
Reinhart
About to pick 7OA (Cozens) and 31OA
Mittelstadt and Thompson just played their first full seasons

McCabe and Ullmark were both about 25 and seemed to be rounding into form, and they had a surplus of other picks in recent years.


They acquired Skinner fairly cheap (2nd+3rd+former 3rd) and he potted 40 goals for them, albeit in a contract year. I prefer that kind of trade+AAV overpay to something like the DeBrincat or even Hamilton deal when you're trying to 'level up'.

I guess my point is that I don't see an alternate timeline that works out better for them if only they had that extra 9M in cap space to play with...

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

For sure. But at the time they signed him they had:

Eichel
Dahlin
Reinhart
About to pick 7OA (Cozens) and 31OA
Mittelstadt and Thompson just played their first full seasons

McCabe and Ullmark were both about 25 and seemed to be rounding into form, and they had a surplus of other picks in recent years.


They acquired Skinner fairly cheap (2nd+3rd+former 3rd) and he potted 40 goals for them, albeit in a contract year. I prefer that kind of trade+AAV overpay to something like the DeBrincat or even Hamilton deal when you're trying to 'level up'.

I guess my point is that I don't see an alternate timeline that works out better for them if only they had that extra 9M in cap space to play with...

Looking back, Eichel and his injury really screwed their prospects. Though I guess the question is - was he ever going to be the stud they expected, or just a good player?

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I think it would be more interesting to see what fans want, not what they think will happen.

Step by step.

I think the decisions about the GM/coach staying aren't independent of each other, and I'd be interested to see how people are doing the calculus.

[Johnny Makarov]

Craig Button as GM
Greg Gilbert as Coach
Brent Sutter as PP Coach
Mike Smith as Goalie Coach.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Looking back, Eichel and his injury really screwed their prospects. Though I guess the question is - was he ever going to be the stud they expected, or just a good player?

Impossible to say; probably not as it's a chicken/egg thing with winning a cup, and winning a cup is really hard. Tavares seems like a pretty good comp.

Ideally you want your group to take one big step 'on their own' (CHI pre-Hossa, LAK pre-Carter/Richards), but you could also look at BOS who leveled up big time with Chara. A big-ticket winger is rarely the answer, but a team like BUF is a beggar (and at that time we weren't far removed from an example like Kessel helping put PIT over the top).

I wonder how the Skinner contract will look overall if he scores say 30 25 20 15 in the remaining 4 years?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Impossible to say; probably not as it's a chicken/egg thing with winning a cup, and winning a cup is really hard. Tavares seems like a pretty good comp.

Ideally you want your group to take one big step 'on their own' (CHI pre-Hossa, LAK pre-Carter/Richards), but you could also look at BOS who leveled up big time with Chara. A big-ticket winger is rarely the answer, but a team like BUF is a beggar (and at that time we weren't far removed from an example like Kessel helping put PIT over the top).

I wonder how the Skinner contract will look overall if he scores say 30 25 20 15 in the remaining 4 years?

It's more how Skinner fits in with the existing team I guess.

[CSharp]

Any team having Crosby and Malkin back in 2016 would still be a Cup contender without Kessel. Flames really never had a choice but to pick up Bennett as their highest draft pick ever. So, not sure how you can justify Botterill over Tre given what was pointed out in the original post.

[midniteowl]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

Offer the job to Cammi Granato just to see if Ray Ferraro's head will explode.

Never mind Ferraro's head, a lot of head will explode here.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by CSharp

Any team having Crosby and Malkin back in 2016 would still be a Cup contender without Kessel. Flames really never had a choice but to pick up Bennett as their highest draft pick ever. So, not sure how you can justify Botterill over Tre given what was pointed out in the original post.

Thing is, he may be perfectly fine overall and all his decisions made sense at the time. But that's a lot like Treliving himself.

I'm more interested, in the case of a replacement, about a GM philosphy than going through individual decisions.

[Rutuu]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I would be okay with the Flames being the first time to hire a female GM as that would likely mean she hasn't been overly influenced by the dinosaurs that have long run the league. Even though Treliving isn't old by GM standards he's still very old school with his fondness for defensemen and depth players. IMO you need to build around goaltending and top 6 forwards to have sustained success in a league where the goals scored/game is rising year over year. I'm so over the past few decades of Flames putting so much resources into bluelines that look good on paper but underwhelm on the ice.

This comment needs it's own thread.

It's something I've felt as well. We've all heard the "build down the middle"..."build from the net out"..."defense wins championships"...

The most popular "what are the flames doing wrong" conclusion is we don't have enough top talent, so we have to tank for a few years to get it.

Personally I feel we concentrate too much on Defence and not enough on offence up front and we undervalue 2nd - 4th round picks, spending them on "depth".