Battle of Alberta Real Talk

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

No top 50 players arguably

Do the Flame have a top 20 D in the league ? A Top 30 forward ?

You win with elite talent in this league not depth .

We lost our 2 closest to elite players (MT is looking to be and JG more of a “should be your 3rd best player on a cup team) and replaced them with “should have been really good players “.

Who then weren’t really good

People always talk about 04 but the Flames had elite players without argument in Kipper and Iggy .

This team has nothing resembling elite talent , and no path to acquiring in the near term . That’s a recipe for disaster going forward

Top-20 D, no.

Top-30 F, maybe. Huberdeau was more productive than Gaudreau over the previous four seasons - I’m more willing to bet this disastrous trade/roster/coaching staff are the reason he looked lost all year vs him forgetting how to be awesome, and this time next year, it’s probably going to be the case that there aren’t 30 forwards in the NHL better than Jonathan Huberdeau.

But he sure wasn’t top -30 this year.


As for the Cinderellas, you nailed it - the 2004 Flames were the least talented group to make finals this century. Worse than Anaheim, worse than Montreal.

Except, they had a top-3 (for a moment, arguably top-1) player in the world, and a goalie who, though he wasn’t quite 33/39/30 level, was certainly top-5 at his position. I can’t think of too many other guys from this era that I’d start over 34.

Those are two pretty significant equalizers, especially when you give them to a coach like Darryl.

When you have that, plus Regehr anchoring the back end in an era when you could do unchecked violence to a man so long as the puck was in his vicinity, you see how a group with the Rocket Richard winner + not a single other 20g scorer (or 50 point player) nearly (did) win the Stanley Cup.

[Sylvanfan]

Yeah as a person living in the East Berlin of this province I think the Oilers might be positioned to do something this year. They have improved their depth a lot since last year and in the past few games are playing a tighter style. They seem to be a tough matchup for Vegas, and Colorado isn't as deep as they were last year and Makars health is of concern.

I don't want them to do well. But this is the year they'll be able to make noise if there is one.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Top-20 D, no.

Top-30 F, maybe. Huberdeau was more productive than Gaudreau over the previous four seasons - I’m more willing to bet this disastrous trade/roster/coaching staff are the reason he looked lost all year vs him forgetting how to be awesome, and this time next year, it’s probably going to be the case that there aren’t 30 forwards in the NHL better than Jonathan Huberdeau.

Eh, I'm not sure even last year's huberdeau was top 30, even while third in scoring. He always seemed to have five point nights in "easy" games, but be a passenger in tighter games for Florida. Going into next year, I'm not sure I take him over:

MacKinnon
Kucherov
Crosby
Point
Stamkos
McDavid
Draisaitl
Gaudreau
Thompson
Matthew
Marner
Pettersson
Marchand
Bergeron
Pastrnak
Eichel
Stutzle
Kaprizov
Panarin
Kane
Barkov
Kopitar
Malkin
Rantanen
Hishchier
Hintz
Ovechkin
Tkachuk
Connor
Hughes
Larkin
Aho
Bedard
Beniers
Michkov

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

They went 3-7 against the Kings and Avalanche in the playoffs last season and went 0-4 against the Jets the season before. If the officials fall for McDavid embellishment and call a lot of powerplays in the playoffs, the Oilers have a chance to win some rounds but for the most part McDrai and company have looked pretty bad in the playoffs.

it was 4-7 (it had to be because they did beat the Kings), but yeah. In fact, they were almost eliminated by LA who had a 3-2 lead after 5. and were tied in the 3rd period of game 6.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Top-20 D, no.

Top-30 F, maybe. Huberdeau was more productive than Gaudreau over the previous four seasons - I’m more willing to bet this disastrous trade/roster/coaching staff are the reason he looked lost all year vs him forgetting how to be awesome, and this time next year, it’s probably going to be the case that there aren’t 30 forwards in the NHL better than Jonathan Huberdeau.

But he sure wasn’t top -30 this year.


As for the Cinderellas, you nailed it - the 2004 Flames were the least talented group to make finals this century. Worse than Anaheim, worse than Montreal.

Except, they had a top-3 (for a moment, arguably top-1) player in the world, and a goalie who, though he wasn’t quite 33/39/30 level, was certainly top-5 at his position. I can’t think of too many other guys from this era that I’d start over 34.

Those are two pretty significant equalizers, especially when you give them to a coach like Darryl.

When you have that, plus Regehr anchoring the back end in an era when you could do unchecked violence to a man so long as the puck was in his vicinity, you see how a group with the Rocket Richard winner + not a single other 20g scorer (or 50 point player) nearly (did) win the Stanley Cup.

The 96 Oilers were pretty low on talent after Pronger. Iginla was miles better than any forward on their roster, Kipper was better than their goaltenders, and after Pronger the Flames had a better blueline group.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Eh, I'm not sure even last year's huberdeau was top 30, even while third in scoring. He always seemed to have five point nights in "easy" games, but be a passenger in tighter games for Florida. Going into next year, I'm not sure I take him over:

MacKinnon
Kucherov
Crosby
Point
Stamkos
McDavid
Draisaitl
Gaudreau
Thompson
Matthew
Marner
Pettersson
Marchand
Bergeron
Pastrnak
Eichel
Stutzle
Kaprizov
Panarin
Kane
Barkov
Kopitar
Malkin
Rantanen
Hishchier
Hintz

If he’s not top-30 based on this season’s results, he has to be when he’s 3rd in scoring. That doesn’t happen by accident.

Now, he’s probably somewhere between 20-40, which is still the crux of the issue.

One top-30 forward, no top-20 D and the worst goaltending tandem in the sport can’t stand up against what is about to be 4 of the last 7 Hart trophies.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

it was 4-7 (it had to be because they did beat the Kings), but yeah. In fact, they were almost eliminated by LA who had a 3-2 lead after 5. and were tied in the 3rd period of game 6.

And the Kings weren't exactly a tough out as they were a year ahead of schedule and Quick oscillated game to game between good and bad.

[curves2000]

I am going to take a controversial and unique approach to this, not as a fan but how athletes and business look at competition.

If the Oilers do well this year and in the future, so be it. Good for them. If ownership and management is sick and tired of the losing and finally did something and they rewarded their fan base, good for them.

If they finally righted the ship after the 15+ years of a disaster, than that's something the Flames need to look at finally doing to their own hockey club.

We as fan's look at the Oilers as some massive, hated rival. The rivalry started in the 80's since the cities were of similar size, a close distance, the same province and a key point, the teams were GOOD!

When the players from those teams talk about the 80's, a key theme emerges. The competition, the drive to be better was FUELED by the competition. They made each other better by striving to be better. It's what made both teams play well against each other and have success.

After the playoff series in 91, in my opinion, the rivalry was extremely limited. Both organizations have been on the downswing for a long long time and didn't play each other until last year. Sure the "Battle of Alberta" was a great marketing scheme but what battle was it when the Oilers were last place and the Flames missed the playoffs, again? Not much.

Athletes LOVE playing against the best. It's what makes them better, it's what separates the winners form the losers. Tom Brady loved playing Peyton Manning in close games, not blowing out Buffalo 47-6. Crosby vs Ovi. Michael Jordan and the Bulls vs Boston/LA/NY/Det.

The Flames organization and us as fan's need to actual wake up and start demanding some action. Personally, as a 38 year old fan who's seen absolutely nothing but BS in my life, I borderline done. I want a CUP and I want long term playoff success. Actual success as in making the playoffs, winning rounds, having heart breaking late round series. Full stop. It's fun for the fans and great for the city. Just hating on the Oilers for the sake of us hating and making us feel good doesn't help. Truth is, we wouldn't have a Cup banner if it wasn't for the Oilers trading away #99 cause the owner had financial problems.

So if the Oilers doing some damage in the playoffs this year fuels some strategic thinking and proper decision making with ownership and management, than so be it. Have at it. We need to start sending some messages that our Flames loyalty has conditions associated with it. It's a two way street, not us supporting the team financially, with our hearts and our valuable time and than we get fed garbage about "trusting the process" and we are built and financed to "make playoffs every year"

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by curves2000

I am going to take a controversial and unique approach to this, not as a fan but how athletes and business look at competition.

If the Oilers do well this year and in the future, so be it. Good for them. If ownership and management is sick and tired of the losing and finally did something and they rewarded their fan base, good for them.

If they finally righted the ship after the 15+ years of a disaster, than that's something the Flames need to look at finally doing to their own hockey club.

We as fan's look at the Oilers as some massive, hated rival. The rivalry started in the 80's since the cities were of similar size, a close distance, the same province and a key point, the teams were GOOD!

When the players from those teams talk about the 80's, a key theme emerges. The competition, the drive to be better was FUELED by the competition. They made each other better by striving to be better. It's what made both teams play well against each other and have success.

After the playoff series in 91, in my opinion, the rivalry was extremely limited. Both organizations have been on the downswing for a long long time and didn't play each other until last year. Sure the "Battle of Alberta" was a great marketing scheme but what battle was it when the Oilers were last place and the Flames missed the playoffs, again? Not much.

Athletes LOVE playing against the best. It's what makes them better, it's what separates the winners form the losers. Tom Brady loved playing Peyton Manning in close games, not blowing out Buffalo 47-6. Crosby vs Ovi. Michael Jordan and the Bulls vs Boston/LA/NY/Det.

The Flames organization and us as fan's need to actual wake up and start demanding some action. Personally, as a 38 year old fan who's seen absolutely nothing but BS in my life, I borderline done. I want a CUP and I want long term playoff success. Actual success as in making the playoffs, winning rounds, having heart breaking late round series. Full stop. It's fun for the fans and great for the city. Just hating on the Oilers for the sake of us hating and making us feel good doesn't help. Truth is, we wouldn't have a Cup banner if it wasn't for the Oilers trading away #99 cause the owner had financial problems.

So if the Oilers doing some damage in the playoffs this year fuels some strategic thinking and proper decision making with ownership and management, than so be it. Have at it. We need to start sending some messages that our Flames loyalty has conditions associated with it. It's a two way street, not us supporting the team financially, with our hearts and our valuable time and than we get fed garbage about "trusting the process" and we are built and financed to "make playoffs every year"

I think the Oilers have already proved that drafting through the top of the draft is better than what the Flames have done, but I won't give them credit for doing it with purpose - it was a product of their own ineptitude.

Colorado, Tampa Bay, Pittsburgh, Chicago, Los Angeles and Washington also proved this to the Flames.

The Flames have been doing things wrong. I'm not going to pile on them for 89-2004, because that was a different era and different constraints.

In the modern NHL world where NHL scouting is much more of a science rather than "holy crap no one is scouting Russia/Sweden/US Colleges", building a Championship team is about the top of the draft. That's where you lay your foundation. After you crush some 1st, 2nd, 3rd overall picks - then you just have the small challenge of being the best managed team in hockey, but at least you've got Step 1 done thanks to those drafts picks and you can actually focus on Step 2.

...but yeah, the Oilers doing more damage in the playoffs this year will only further prove it. It should also piss this fanbase the !@#$ off in the process. The time for this fanbase being accepting of just sneaking in because "anything can happen" should be behind us. It's proven itself to be a moronic approach.

[dino7c]

This thread is dumb...Oilers had a 10% chance at McDavid (even lower as the lottery was in progress) and got lucky

After a year they were trying to be good

[midniteowl]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

Yeah as a person living in the East Berlin of this province I think the Oilers might be positioned to do something this year. They have improved their depth a lot since last year and in the past few games are playing a tighter style. They seem to be a tough matchup for Vegas, and Colorado isn't as deep as they were last year and Makars health is of concern.

I don't want them to do well. But this is the year they'll be able to make noise if there is one.

Are those noise them whining that the refs don't give them enough PP?

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Eh, I'm not sure even last year's huberdeau was top 30, even while third in scoring. He always seemed to have five point nights in "easy" games, but be a passenger in tighter games for Florida. Going into next year, I'm not sure I take him over:

MacKinnon
Kucherov
Crosby
Point
Stamkos
McDavid
Draisaitl
Gaudreau
Thompson
Matthew
Marner
Pettersson
Marchand
Bergeron
Pastrnak
Eichel
Stutzle
Kaprizov
Panarin
Kane
Barkov
Kopitar
Malkin
Rantanen
Hishchier
Hintz
Ovechkin
Tkachuk
Connor
Hughes
Larkin
Aho
Bedard
Beniers
Michkov

He was better than a lot of those guys come on now

You don't get 115 points scoring in "easy games". Obviously he lit up bad teams just like Gaudreau/Tkachuk who also didn't score as much when it mattered most.

Every list last year had him on the top line of team Canada...he set an all time assist record ffs

[howard_the_duck]

Real talk. Here goes. *puts on tinfoil hat*

I believe the existence of the Oilers, and their mismanagement, has paralyzed our franchise at a critical time. Flames ownership looks at Oilers' historical incompetence, snickers at their repeatedly winning the lottery (and even failing somehow when doing this), and points at that as the reason to avoid rebuilding at all costs, despite it being precisely what we need. IMO, it's no coincidence we've heard rumblings and snide remarks about winning the lottery from Feaster and Treliving. It's ownership speak and I think there's quite a bit of resentment that the Oilers' ineptitude has landed them McDavid and completely turned their fortune, undeservedly.

Because of this, winning 'another way' seems to be the mandate. "We'll show them". Our stubbornness to rebuild is more complex than profitability for ownership, namely Murray Edwards. It's about spite.

This rival hatred isn't a one-way street. If I recall correctly, the last two coaches the Oilers fired came after lopsided losses to the Flames. This rivalry is so intense that it's feeding emotions to the execs running the franchises that has, in some cases, clouded better judgment.

I'm fearful this Oilers team will win the cup this year if I'm being honest. With Colorado bruised and battered, there's not a better chance the Oilers will have to do it than this year.

[midniteowl]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

I think the Oilers have already proved that drafting through the top of the draft is better than what the Flames have done, but I won't give them credit for doing it with purpose - it was a product of their own ineptitude.

Colorado, Tampa Bay, Pittsburgh, Chicago, Los Angeles and Washington also proved this to the Flames.

The Flames have been doing things wrong. I'm not going to pile on them for 89-2004, because that was a different era and different constraints.

In the modern NHL world where NHL scouting is much more of a science rather than "holy crap no one is scouting Russia/Sweden/US Colleges", building a Championship team is about the top of the draft. That's where you lay your foundation. After you crush some 1st, 2nd, 3rd overall picks - then you just have the small challenge of being the best managed team in hockey, but at least you've got Step 1 done thanks to those drafts picks and you can actually focus on Step 2.

...but yeah, the Oilers doing more damage in the playoffs this year will only further prove it. It should also piss this fanbase the !@#$ off in the process. The time for this fanbase being accepting of just sneaking in because "anything can happen" should be behind us. It's proven itself to be a moronic approach.

This is funny. How many times they have drafted 1st overall? And what have they done prior to lucking into McDiver? How many of those 1st overall are still on the team now? If they don't luck into McDiver, do you honestly think they'd make the playoff this year?

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

And the whole Kane fiasco where he escapes from his contract, and no one really suffers, so he can then sign with the only team that can stand him.

No kidding he did something bad enough to void his contract and then wasn't suspended lol

[dino7c]

Oilers haven't even won a division title

As good as some of you think they look the Flames have had better regular seasons. Neither team has won anything in the playoffs

People are giving them credit for things that haven't happened

[BACKCHECK!!!]

Ekholm goes a long way towards filling the glaring gap on defence the oilers have had for years and years. And Kane made their biggest strength even stronger.

This is the first year where they’ve actually been “good”.

I’m not terribly worried about them winning the cup, because “good” doesn’t usually cut it.

The only way they go deep is if the referees keep giving them power plays at the most convenient possible times.

That’s not impossible, the refs did that for Vancouver in 2011 right up until the finals. But as soon as the games start getting called as playoff games (or even just called fairly), the Oilers are going to be out.

Calgary is out of the playoffs because of poor goaltending, and to a lesser extent because of Sutter’s lineup decisions in overtime. And that’s despite a lot of key players underperforming.

I think a change in goaltending (either by Markstrom returning to form or getting replaced as starter) is all this team needs to be on equal footing to the Oilers.

[howard_the_duck]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Oilers haven't even won a division title

As good as some of you think they look the Flames have had better regular seasons. Neither team has won anything in the playoffs

People are giving them credit for things that haven't happened

They went to the WCF last year. Their path looks easier, if anything, this year.

Our heads are in the sand if we don't think they're a real threat.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by dino7c

This thread is dumb...Oilers had a 10% chance at McDavid (even lower as the lottery was in progress) and got lucky

After a year they were trying to be good

Even without McDavid, they still would have had Draisaitl and Hall. that’s still two Hart trophy forwards - if you tank and get two (three - lol stupid oilers) MVP forwards out of it, the plan worked.

Just because Oilers gonna Oil doesn’t mean the underlying philosophy guiding their actions to tank for elite talent was the wrong one.

When Burke took over the Leafs, he was asked about the Pittsburgh model, and famously answered “they won a goddamn lottery and they got the best player on the world. Is that an option available to me?”

Well, look at how the Leafs fortunes changed after they won a goddamn lottery. And you can crack on them for first round exits, but the team they can’t get past in round 1 is the 3x defending conference champions.

Every champion since 2009 except the Kings has drafted 1st at least once. They are the exception that proves the rule. (And the Blues, since their #1 pick didn’t do anything to help them, though he did win his ring with Colorado)

Hot take - It is impossible to win a Stanley Cup without a franchise player drafted 1st overall in the modern NHL.

[Samonadreau]

We were at West Ed a few weeks ago and my 5 yo son was wearing a Flames hoodie and a couple of grown men were heckling him for it. Absolute trash fans to go along with an absolute trash organization.