[PGT] Flames lose 3-2, playoff hopes extinguished

[tvp2003]

Originally Posted by Toonage

The season hung in the balance and by his own admission he didn't care.

Darryl has seen enough this year to know it would just be a waste of 8 days.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Toonage

ESPN & Athletic reporters were pretty vocal about it last night on Twitter. Laughing, maybe not, but confusion seemed to reign.

I get that when it comes down to it, Ritchie shooting was well after most of the damage was done for this season. It was lost a while back. But the season continuing hinged on his decisions last night. Decisions Sutter said had no bearing. And thats what he threw out there.

The season hung in the balance and by his own admission he didn't care.

He said he didn't care?

I think he said the issue was overtime wasn't it? Missing those chances?

I want the guy gone, he's wore thing for me, but the level of angst over a gut call (all coaches make them) is way over the top for me.

The Flames don't seem to have a lot of good shoot out options.

Remember the days where Tkachuk and Monahan were givens?

[Toonage]

Originally Posted by Bingo

He said he didn't care?

I think he said the issue was overtime wasn't it? Missing those chances?

I want the guy gone, he's wore thing for me, but the level of angst over a gut call (all coaches make them) is way over the top for me.

The Flames don't seem to have a lot of good shoot out options.

Remember the days where Tkachuk and Monahan were givens?

Colborne even

I guess it just bugged me. The season hangs on them needing to win in the shootout. That entire bench to choose from at #4, and he goes Ritchie. Then the presser afterwards, just soured me even more. To me he said it didn't matter who he sent to shoot. It absolutely mattered.

[MillerTime GFG]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Where did I offer my definition of winning?

Our disconnect is how we see being a fan.

You've said "when they win it's fun", essentially referring to individual games. I don't see winning individual games as success, or necessarily fun.

I see "winning" as a franchise with a chance to hoist the cup. After decades of mediocrity, simply winning game 80 doesn't do it for me. Show me some wins that mean something.

[Flames_Gimp]

but this team is good enough to win, stand pat on deadline day!


Blech terrible frustrating year thanks for turning an exciting winning team back into a non playoff team again johnny. Still upset that he made the team wait till the last minute only to walk so they get nothing.

[CroFlames]

For a guy who lives or dies by his starting goalie and refuses to play young guys going to his favorites time and again, it was an uncharacteristic move for him to choose Ritchie for that important shot.

Quite frankly Ritchie would be near the bottom of my shooting list - likely only Tanev is behind him. He doesn't have an offensive bone in his body.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by MillerTime GFG

You've said "when they win it's fun", essentially referring to individual games. I don't see winning individual games as success, or necessarily fun.

I see "winning" as a franchise with a chance to hoist the cup. After decades of mediocrity, simply winning game 80 doesn't do it for me. Show me some wins that mean something.

Ok then your big mistake is assuming a whole narrative from me without any actual knowledge.

Not losing your #### after a regulation loss or a tough season doesn't mean you don't want to see the franchise progress, become a contender and hoist a cup.

Just means you didn't lose your ####.

I can be as disappointed as anyone. I just don't rush to a website to regurgitate my doom and gloom for those already licking their wounds.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Toonage

Colborne even

I guess it just bugged me. The season hangs on them needing to win in the shootout. That entire bench to choose from at #4, and he goes Ritchie. Then the presser afterwards, just soured me even more. To me he said it didn't matter who he sent to shoot. It absolutely mattered.

Yup. I bet you it mattered to Tyler Toffoli.

He was down the tunnel last night before Sutter was.

Honestly it's little things like that which probably are driving guys crazy this year. Line deployments, PP deployments, OT deployments (there was a long stretch where Huberdeau didn't see the ice in OT), have been questionable all year.

I think that stuff probably goes further to losing a dressing room than stuff said to players even.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by MillerTime GFG

You've said "when they win it's fun", essentially referring to individual games. I don't see winning individual games as success, or necessarily fun.

I see "winning" as a franchise with a chance to hoist the cup. After decades of mediocrity, simply winning game 80 doesn't do it for me. Show me some wins that mean something.

I understand you. I really do. I wish we were the Pens or Bolts or Caps or Bruins.

But I think Bingo's life experiences have led him to a more relaxed attitude toward the team and honestly we could all use a bit more of that kind of attitude. Isn't this supposed to be fun?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Add the selection of Nick Ritchie in a shootout to save your season to the list of all-time Flames coaching/management blunders.

Probably ranks above selecting Mark Jankowski from some no-name high school as a first round pick.

Flames are being laughed at across the league right now.

It's not even close as far as a comparison goes. One is a coach going with his gut and maybe (and given his options it's a pretty big maybe) missing out on a goal which would have maybe (and its also a big maybe) gotten the Flames into the POs (remembering that the odds were long anyway).

The other is a blunder which cost the team a stud player for many many years in one of Teravainen, Hertl, Wilson or Vasilevksy in exchange for a guy who would have been picked 40th or so.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Ok then your big mistake is assuming a whole narrative from me without any actual knowledge.

Not losing your #### after a regulation loss or a tough season doesn't mean you don't want to see the franchise progress, become a contender and hoist a cup.

Just means you didn't lose your ####.

I can be as disappointed as anyone. I just don't rush to a website to regurgitate my doom and gloom for those already licking their wounds.

It's weird when people who don't have any of the typical markers of being a fan of something start to reframe the majority of typical fans that actually enjoy themselves as people who apparently don't care about winning or playoffs or championships.

Literally everybody here would be a LOT happier with a Cup contender than what we have now. EVERYBODY lol. But some people apparently struggle with the idea that you can... you know... enjoy watching hockey... as a fan of a hockey team... a strange and striking concept.

Imagine spending 3 hours at home or 3 hours and hundreds of dollars out to watch something you don't like. Worse: imagine refusing to do either of those things and then attempting to assert yourself as someone with stronger "fan values" than other fans. Yikes.

[GioforPM]

I struggle a bit with what the concept of a contender is to some posters anyway. Last year the Flames won the division. They were a favorite going into the POs, especially the way brackets were constructed - if the Avs missed the Flames were the next in line for the finals. So to the world the Flames must have been contenders, right?

Now we know how it turned out but that's hindsight.

Preseason this year, who had Boston as a contender? I didn't. I thought they were aging out and had a relatively untested goalie. Who had NJ? Not me - I thought they were still building, though I liked them. Anyone outside of Toronto have the Leafs in the top 3? Vegas does.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I struggle a bit with what the concept of a contender is to some posters anyway. Last year the Flames won the division. They were a favorite going into the POs, especially the way brackets were constructed - if the Avs missed the Flames were the next in line for the finals. So to the world the Flames must have been contenders, right?

Now we know how it turned out but that's hindsight.

Preseason this year, who had Boston as a contender? I didn't. I thought they were aging out and had a relatively untested goalie. Who had NJ? Not me - I thought they were still building, though I liked them. Anyone outside of Toronto have the Leafs in the top 3? Vegas does.

The teams in the mix seem to change year over year the only consistent has been Tampa Bay, Florida, Vegas, Colorado and maybe Carolina?

[MillerTime GFG]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

It's weird when people who don't have any of the typical markers of being a fan of something start to reframe the majority of typical fans that actually enjoy themselves as people who apparently don't care about winning or playoffs or championships.

Literally everybody here would be a LOT happier with a Cup contender than what we have now. EVERYBODY lol. But some people apparently struggle with the idea that you can... you know... enjoy watching hockey... as a fan of a hockey team... a strange and striking concept.

Imagine spending 3 hours at home or 3 hours and hundreds of dollars out to watch something you don't like. Worse: imagine refusing to do either of those things and then attempting to assert yourself as someone with stronger "fan values" than other fans. Yikes.

Imagine positive posters acting holier than thou and being shocked when negative posters post negative things when negative things happen. Strange that. No one said anything about having stronger "fan values". But don't let the truth get in the way of a good story.

And for the record...I have watched very little Flames hockey this year (especially the latter half), and didn't spend a dime on tickets/merch etc.

[MillerTime GFG]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Ok then your big mistake is assuming a whole narrative from me without any actual knowledge.

Not losing your #### after a regulation loss or a tough season doesn't mean you don't want to see the franchise progress, become a contender and hoist a cup.

Just means you didn't lose your ####.

I can be as disappointed as anyone. I just don't rush to a website to regurgitate my doom and gloom for those already licking their wounds.

Seems we also have a different definition of what "losing your ####" is. I pointed out that this was predictable, and that I predicted it months ago.

Or I lost my ####. One of the two.

Originally Posted by CroFlames

I understand you. I really do. I wish we were the Pens or Bolts or Caps or Bruins.

But I think Bingo's life experiences have led him to a more relaxed attitude toward the team and honestly we could all use a bit more of that kind of attitude. Isn't this supposed to be fun?

I've adjusted how I follow this team as I've gotten older by not watching nearly as many games when they're no good, and certainly not spending money to go watch them. Otherwise I find myself getting too frustrated. I'll never not follow this team closely though. It's in my veins.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

The teams in the mix seem to change year over year the only consistent has been Tampa Bay, Florida, Vegas, Colorado and maybe Carolina?

I guess, though you'd have to really only count the last 3 years then for Fla. And this year it's iffy. They ain't in yet are they?

Is Carolina seen as a cup contender or as a perennial underachiever?

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by MillerTime GFG

Seems we also have a different definition of what "losing your ####" is. I pointed out that this was predictable, and that I predicted it months ago.

Or I lost my ####. One of the two.

I think looking at what happened and what needs to change in a rational way isn't losing your ####.

And I've said that.

Needing to recant 40 years of Flames hockey and cast shade on an unnamed future draft pick seems a little like losing your #### to me.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I guess, though you'd have to really only count the last 3 years then for Fla. And this year it's iffy. They ain't in yet are they?

Is Carolina seen as a cup contender or as a perennial underachiever?

They have good seasons depends on if you value the regular season or not. Over 82 games if you put up the wins they do I would say yes they are contenders.

The playoffs can be a crapshoot sometimes the best team doesn't always win due to luck and streaks.

I still think your aim should be to finish as high as you can and not rely on just getting in because those Cinderella stories are rare.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I struggle a bit with what the concept of a contender is to some posters anyway. Last year the Flames won the division. They were a favorite going into the POs, especially the way brackets were constructed - if the Avs missed the Flames were the next in line for the finals. So to the world the Flames must have been contenders, right?

Now we know how it turned out but that's hindsight.

Preseason this year, who had Boston as a contender? I didn't. I thought they were aging out and had a relatively untested goalie. Who had NJ? Not me - I thought they were still building, though I liked them. Anyone outside of Toronto have the Leafs in the top 3? Vegas does.

Yeah I don't see two division titles in what 4 years as constantly stuck in mediocrity.

If anything they've been yoyoing between the middle and second tier contender.

[Enoch Root]

Glad that the season is over and we can start to put it behind us. The lack of success doesn't bother me - there are good seasons and bad seasons in sports. What does bother me are the attitudes and decisions that undermined the season. IMO, there are 4 people to blame:

4) Gaudreau
3) Tkachuk
2) Kadri
1) Sutter.

The decisions made by Gaudreau and Tkachuk (especially Tkachuk, as he was still under contract for another year), put the franchise in a position where change was forced upon it. Big change. And though they tried to make the best of it, in the end, those changes ultimately sank the season, and will continue to impact the team for a long time.

Kadri has pissed me off more than any player I can remember, for a very long time. For him to completely quit on the team, and the organization, in the first year of a 7 year, $49M deal, and to do so is such a publicly visible and disrespectful way (especially to the fans and his team-mates) is simply unacceptable. If I was GM, he would be gone this summer, regardless of the cost.

But as infuriating as Kadri has been, and the decisions by Gaudreau and Tkachuk were, I place the disaster that has been this season, squarely at the feet of Sutter. It is Sutter's decisions, attitudes, comments, and stubbornness, that have created and defined the season. He set the tone. He created the atmosphere. He defined the style of play. And he brought in the clouds that made the whole season grey, dreary, and unenjoyable.

It started with his dismantling of Huberdeau, as if he felt Huberdeau was a crap player who needed rebuilding in his own image. But trying to completely change Huberdeau's game wasn't bad enough, then he had to start getting on his back, criticizing his play, and then throwing out the silly 'went for a ####' comment. Sutter took a player who was under a huge amount of pressure already (moving to a Canadian market to be 'the guy') and made the atmosphere much, much worse - so much so, that Huberdeau really didn't stand a chance. And then leaving Huberdeau and Kadri together for about 50 games or so (even throwing Lucic on their line for a while), came across, to me anyway, as just spiteful.

It continued with his stubbornness to continue to throw Markstrom out there, regardless of performance. Yes, Markstrom had a bad year, and should be held accountable for that, but players have bead years sometimes. But the way Sutter handled the goaltending did nothing to rectify the situation. And in fact, his stubbornness only threw more shade on the team and the mood in the room. It was just another way that he kept reminding the team that he's in charge, and things will be done his way.

The Power Play. I know that it was under the watchful eye of Muller, but ultimately, Sutter is responsible for his staff as well. And there is nothing positive that can be said about the PP this year - the choice of players, their utilization, the basic strategy, the set plays, the zone entries, the way they continued to do the same things over and over, regardless of how they were being defended, it was an unequivocable failure. Someone made a comment about just sending 5 guys out there randomly, and they probably would have done a better job. Sadly, I think that is actually true - had they just sent the PP group out there and said 'just do whatever you think', it would have likely been better. In a season where finding offense was like hunting for precious metals, a few nuggets from the PP could have made all the difference. But again, change, or adaptability, were never on the menu.

Phillips, Pelletier, Coronato, Duehr (to a lesser extent), Lucic, Ritchie, and the absence of Wolf. This point needs no further comment. His stubbornness with the lineup was beyond frustrating, and entered into the comical. Lucic, Lewis, Ritchie, Ritchie, and Rooney ALL played in the top 9 this year. The team struggled to score all year, yet he continued to favour grinders over the injection of youth and speed.

Not practicing 3 on 3, or being prepared for shoot-outs. Yes, there is no 3 on 3 in the playoffs, but you still have to MAKE the playoffs. And by going 5-12 in OT, along with 5 more SO losses, the Flames will not make the playoffs. That is all Sutter had to do to save the season - just have them in a position to compete in OT, and if they were close to .500 in extra time, they would be in the playoffs this year.

There are plenty more things that could be mentioned, like rolling 4 lines no matter what, having the 4th line out at the end of every PP, etc. but this post is already too long. The bottom line is that this season was defined by Sutter, and he needs to be held accountable.

For me, he has to take the blame for the failed season.