[PGT] Flames lose 3-2, playoff hopes extinguished

[skcli]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Markstrom shoulders his share of the blame for all of the Chicago losses and one of the losses to the Habs and Ducks. And the one loss to AZ. Not the Columbus loss - he was .923, and not the loss in Montreal - he was .974. He was also good in all 3 losses to Nashville and beat Winnipeg 2 out of 3.

He has 0.892 this year which is worst than his average of the last 5 years (>0.90). Imagine we have a goalie with better save percentage we will be still watching some hockey in the third week of April.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by ben voyonsdonc

Sutter doesn’t ever show self reflection or humility when his decisions flop. It’s infuriating.

Agreed. And his comment that the Ritchie shoot-out attempt didn't impact the game? WTF? Yes, they had chances in OT to win it. But they didn't, and the game was still on the line. Shrugging it off as inconsequential like that is more than infuriating. IMO, last night's display warrants an immediate firing. Like, this morning.

[Mr.Coffee]

Agreed there is no point waiting to fire him. He has to be fired and ergo, should be fired immediately.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by HighLifeMan

Kadri was 1/5 on the season and all but quit on the team down the stretch.
Backlund is a career 1/13 in the shootout. He's not, and never will be a good selection in such situations.
Ritchie has 6 career attempts and just two goals during his 9 year career for a reason.


Toffoli was 1/2 on the year and our most clutch player all season.
Rasmus was 2/4 on the year.
Lindholm didn't get a single opportunity in the shootout all year.

There really is no defending those choices, and Darryl's quote that those selections really had "no bearing" on the outcome says everything you need to know.

I'm not defedning the choices other than to say Calgary doesn't have any good shootout choices, really. The stats on those small sample sizes mean almost nothing. But it's clear who might have a better shot as far as having good hands.

Originally Posted by bax

Ritchie literally scored on Saros in a shootout earlier this season. I can live with that pick. It’s the Kadri and Backlund picks that I don’t like.

I don’t see what Kadri has done to deserve to be in that position and Backlund has never been good in the shootout.

Lindholm, Toffoli, and Mangiapane- our three best goal scorers don’t get a sniff.

Toffoli is the best goals scorer on Calgary, no doubt. I suspect his poor attempt against Winnipeg played a part. But Kadri is second in goals and Backlund is 4th, just 3 behind Andersson.

Shootout skills aren't a complete overlap with regular goalscoring anyway (see Schlemko). Hubderdeau is obviously skilled and can do it, despite the fact he is 8th in goals on the team.

Like I said, IMO this wasn't a message, it was just Sutter going (again) with his gut.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by skcli

He has 0.892 this year which is worst than his average of the last 5 years (>0.90). Imagine we have a goalie with better save percentage we will be still watching some hockey in the third week of April.

Agreed. I was just responding to the notion that the team not beading bottom feeders was the cause. Markstrom played a part in some of those (but not others).

There's a lot of moving parts to the end result here. Markstrom being better, the team not giving up the kind of chances early that they did, OT was a huge factor. etc etc etc

[Blaster86]

We're all bad team buddies now! Yay!

[bax]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I'm not defedning the choices other than to say Calgary doesn't have any good shootout choices, really. The stats on those small sample sizes mean almost nothing. But it's clear who might have a better shot as far as having good hands.



Toffoli is the best goals scorer on Calgary, no doubt. I suspect his poor attempt against Winnipeg played a part. But Kadri is second in goals and Backlund is 4th, just 3 behind Andersson.

Shootout skills aren't a complete overlap with regular goalscoring anyway (see Schlemko). Hubderdeau is obviously skilled and can do it, despite the fact he is 8th in goals on the team.

Like I said, IMO this wasn't a message, it was just Sutter going (again) with his gut.

I don’t think it was a message either. I have no problem with the Ritchie pick given he scored earlier in the season on Saros. Backlund is 1/13 in his career though. It’s been established he’s not good in the shootout.

[taxbuster]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Agreed there is no point waiting to fire him. He has to be fired and ergo, should be fired immediately.

I'm always bemused by the comments about how people should be fired NOW.

For those who've never been in management...there are consequences to termination, whether of an employee or of a contractual relationship. Employees have certain rights and termination "for cause" (which is EXTREMELY difficult these days, regardless of employee level) is rare and often unsuccessful, unless preceded by massive documentation and opportunities to make redress. Terminations "not for cause" ALWAYS involve payment to the injured party.

Termination of commercial contracts of almost all kinds have punitive clauses for the same reason. One cannot simply terminate an agreement ... "for reasons" and walk away dusting off one's hands.

(Don't believe me? Try terminating your cell phone contracts.)

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by taxbuster

I'm always bemused by the comments about how people should be fired NOW.

For those who've never been in management...there are consequences to termination, whether of an employee or of a contractual relationship. Employees have certain rights and termination "for cause" (which is EXTREMELY difficult these days, regardless of employee level) is rare and often unsuccessful, unless preceded by massive documentation and opportunities to make redress. Terminations "not for cause" ALWAYS involve payment to the injured party.

Termination of commercial contracts of almost all kinds have punitive clauses for the same reason. One cannot simply terminate an agreement ... "for reasons" and walk away dusting off one's hands.

(Don't believe me? Try terminating your cell phone contracts.)

These contracts have pretty specific termination clauses. essentially they'd just still be paying him, only his duties would be gone.

Sutter was extended for 2 years starting next season right after his Jack Adams. So if everyone's happy paying him for that time frame, great.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Whenever a coach gets blames for something I always suggest asking yourself if it's likely he'd actually coach that way?

Can we think of any reason why Sutter would say "don't do any across the slot passes this year! None!" when his team scored a lot of goals doing exactly that the season before?

I can't see it.

Just like I couldn't see Bill Peters telling his team to back in on his goaltenders against the Avalanche in the playoffs.

Why?

I think to some degree the team doesn't have the mix that creates the chances that result in cross slot passing.

Totally disagree. Just because one line last year didn't follow the mandate doesn't mean anything. Two of those players left as soon as they got the chance. Everything goes back to the point in this system because that is what the players are instructed to do. It is the way Huberdeau played his game up until the latter part of the year where I think he just stopped listening to the coach and went back to trying what made him successful.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by MillerTime GFG

We have different definitions of winning. That seems to be the disconnect.

Where did I offer my definition of winning?

Our disconnect is how we see being a fan.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by MillerTime GFG

We have different definitions of winning. That seems to be the disconnect.

We have these same arguments on CP every year.
There's a group like you or I that feels the goal should always be about building a real contender and having playoff success.

And there's a group that are happy we had a playoff chance 81/82 games this year and have fun watching that without a care of playoff success.
They'd take this every season with no care if it ever gets better than this.
Its pointless to keep arguing about it.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

We have these same arguments on CP every year.
There's a group like you or I that feels the goal should always be about building a real contender and having playoff success.

And there's a group that are happy we had a playoff chance 81/82 games this year and have fun watching that without a care of playoff success.
They'd take this every season with no care if it ever gets better than this.
Its pointless to keep arguing about it.

Hope there are more groups than that!

Life isn't fun when you always have a tire on the rumble strip.

Plenty of real estate between what you think, and what you define as the other group.

[Manhattanboy]

Add the selection of Nick Ritchie in a shootout to save your season to the list of all-time Flames coaching/management blunders.

Probably ranks above selecting Mark Jankowski from some no-name high school as a first round pick.

Flames are being laughed at across the league right now.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by taxbuster

I'm always bemused by the comments about how people should be fired NOW.

For those who've never been in management...there are consequences to termination, whether of an employee or of a contractual relationship. Employees have certain rights and termination "for cause" (which is EXTREMELY difficult these days, regardless of employee level) is rare and often unsuccessful, unless preceded by massive documentation and opportunities to make redress. Terminations "not for cause" ALWAYS involve payment to the injured party.

Termination of commercial contracts of almost all kinds have punitive clauses for the same reason. One cannot simply terminate an agreement ... "for reasons" and walk away dusting off one's hands.

(Don't believe me? Try terminating your cell phone contracts.)

Thanks but this is the NHL, coaches get fired all the time. There is some paperwork to it I'm sure - but its not like you are doing something earth shattering when you fire a coach.

[ResAlien]

Does Coronato have to dress and skate to burn a year of his contract or is there a way around it? To me that Ritchie trot out felt like an FU to someone above him and I immediately wondered if Sutter might possibly screw that kid and the org by not burning a year as promised.

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by ResAlien

Does Coronato have to dress and skate to burn a year of his contract or is there a way around it?

No, it's burned already.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

We have these same arguments on CP every year.
There's a group like you or I that feels the goal should always be about building a real contender and having playoff success.

And there's a group that are happy we had a playoff chance 81/82 games this year and have fun watching that without a care of playoff success.
They'd take this every season with no care if it ever gets better than this.
Its pointless to keep arguing about it.

What about the group that would be happy with a rebuild but realize the owners will not embrace it unless absolutely forced and are cheering for the playoffs. I think that is the most common group.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Add the selection of Nick Ritchie in a shootout to save your season to the list of all-time Flames coaching/management blunders.

Probably ranks above selecting Mark Jankowski from some no-name high school as a first round pick.

Flames are being laughed at across the league right now.

I think there are lots of annoying Sutter being stubborn issues to hang your hat on this year.

The Ritchie choice in a shoot out seems well down the list.

I haven't seen laughing in NHL circles today.

Feels way over blown to me.

[Toonage]

ESPN & Athletic reporters were pretty vocal about it last night on Twitter. Laughing, maybe not, but confusion seemed to reign.

I get that when it comes down to it, Ritchie shooting was well after most of the damage was done for this season. It was lost a while back. But the season continuing hinged on his decisions last night. Decisions Sutter said had no bearing. And thats what he threw out there.

The season hung in the balance and by his own admission he didn't care.