[PGT] Flames lose 3-2, playoff hopes extinguished

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

He has literally said (paraphrasing) "We don't have the talent to make those plays, so we need to get shot volume on net".

I do think he is telling them just put it on net.

I'm not eliminating that.

But I certainly don't take Sutter at his word for anything.

I mean they have an analytics department. I can't see them not noticing their shot volume was resulting in great attempts, shots and some medium, but they were falling in high danger.

I think the make up of the team plays a role in it. Is that 80% of the problem or 20% of the problem I don't know.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by MillerTime GFG

No, he was inferring I was incorrect in saying I predicted this months ago.



Sort of, ya! What I'm saying is your big picture view is incorrect. My opinion is the big picture is bleak and has been for decades. The difference is my opinion has facts/statistics to back it.

Why would my "big picture" be a history lesson?

If you feel that an organization is static regardless of who owns it, who runs it, who coaches it and who plays for it then I guess sure.

But even the win the division miss the playoffs rotation kind of breaks your immaculate big picture vision doesn't it?

[AFireInside]

I don't think we have the players to make those cross ice plays. Dube, Mangiapane, Kadri, Ritchie, Coleman aren't making those kind of plays. Sutter made a ton of bizarre bad decisions this year, but we were relying way too much on guys like Kadri, Dube, and Mangiapane to step up.

Mangiapane got a little better late.

Dube has 1 goal in his last 20 games. He's getting points by just being with Lindholm and Toffoli. He's a good 3rd liner. Mangiapane is incredibly streaky, relying on him will be tough.

I have no explanation for Kadri, other than he just seems whiny, and lazy defensively. He wants to do it all himself, and doesn't seem to want to use his linemates. Might be that he bought into his own hype from last year, playing on an avs team where he would have had a lot more space, who knows.

Originally Posted by Bingo

I'm not eliminating that.

I think the make up of the team plays a role in it. Is that 80% of the problem or 20% of the problem I don't know.

I think it's 80%...

[Bingo]

Digging in it looks like maybe they were adjusting. Was just too late.

first 60 games 12.01 HD60 (19th overall).
Last 21 games 13.54 HD60 (7th overall).

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by AFireInside

I don't think we have the players to make those cross ice plays. Dube, Mangiapane, Kadri, Ritchie, Coleman aren't making those kind of plays. Sutter made a ton of bizarre bad decisions this year, but we were relying way too much on guys like Kadri, Dube, and Mangiapane to step up.

Mangiapane got a little better late.

Dube has 1 goal in his last 20 games. He's getting points by just being with Lindholm and Toffoli. He's a good 3rd liner. Mangiapane is incredibly streaky, relying on him will be tough.

I have no explanation for Kadri, other than he just seems whiny, and lazy defensively. He wants to do it all himself, and doesn't seem to want to use his linemates. Might be that he bought into his own hype from last year, playing on an avs team where he would have had a lot more space, who knows.





I think it's 80%...

Me too.

[GioforPM]

You can't tell me that Toffoli doesn't know how to find open ice - that's my memory of him in Montreal, just floating into the slot for a pass. Same with Lindholm - he was open in the right side of the slot so much for Tkachuk and Gaudreau. And there's no way Huberdeau wouldn't have, in the long run, worked it out with those two.

[SuperMatt18]

I dont think we ever saw the ideal line combos either.

Dube is the closest player we have to Bennett and Duclair...he never saw the ice with Huberdeau.

Toffoli and Lindholm were stapled together, putting our only 2 RH shots on the same line.

The young guys (Ruzicka, Pelletier, Duehr, Phillips) never got enough of a look.

The player usage and line combos were questionable all year IMO. Never felt like they were put in the right mix to succeed.

To me it's probably 50/50. The team lacks playmakers and has a lot of volume shooters on it, but coaching never put those guys in a position to succeed either.

Maybe if we lack a playmaker it would make sense to give the guy who led the farm team in assists the last two seasons a look.

[Johnny Makarov]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

It's possible, although I think you could get at least a 2nd for both Tanev and Zadorov pretty easily — and after the year Toffoli just had, hoo boy, I think you could get a haul.

get the hell out of here with your Zadorov hate! We need more of him, not less! Or do you really like those 90lb weakling teams from 3 years ago?

Get rid of Hanifin first and his trade value is still pretty high.

[MillerTime GFG]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Why would my "big picture" be a history lesson?

If you feel that an organization is static regardless of who owns it, who runs it, who coaches it and who plays for it then I guess sure.

But even the win the division miss the playoffs rotation kind of breaks your immaculate big picture vision doesn't it?

No, b/c winning the division in the last few years has only led to one playoff series win, in which we had to scrape and claw a 7-game series win vs a WC team.

My big picture vision is a chance to win the cup. Is yours not? Is making the playoffs good enough for you? I mean, if that makes you happy then so be it, but I just don't understand that.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Johnny Makarov

get the hell out of here with your Zadorov hate! We need more of him, not less! Or do you really like those 90lb weakling teams from 3 years ago?

Get rid of Hanifin first and his trade value is still pretty high.

zadorov fell off a cliff 50 games ago

[Teroy]

This season isn't on Sutter. It's on Huberdeau, Kadri and Markstrom. 23.5 million dollars in 2023/24 and they crapped the bed.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by HighLifeMan

Darryl Sutter

2014-15 - Kings were 5th in xGF%. Missed the playoffs.
2016-17 - Kings were 3rd in xGF%. Missed the playoffs.
2020-21 - Flames were 3rd in xGF% under Sutter. 15-15 record. Missed Playoffs.
2022-23 - Flames were 3rd in xGF%. Missed the playoffs.

At what point do these results stop becoming about "bad luck" and start becoming a reflection of the system and coach in place? His teams are always analytically "elite" and while that's nice to point at on paper the results speaks for themselves in recent memory. That's 4 missed playoffs in his past 6 seasons as an NHL coach, with just 6 playoff wins total. That's not good enough.

What we should take away from this is it's !@#$ING TIME TO REBUILD.

The Kings tried to stay relevant beyond that 2016-2017 season for too long (1 more season). Don't do that here. Stop wasting our !@#$ing time!

Kings tanked it right after that 17/18 season and drafted:

2019: 5, 22, 33, 50, 87, 95, 119, 157. 188
2020: 2, 35, 45, 66, 83, 112, 128, 140, 190
2021: 8, 42, 59, 84

The Kings, I feel, still didn't do a good enough job and didn't really get any luck in the draft - and their top three picks aren't even contributing in a meaningful way yet AND THEY'RE STILL BETTER THAN THE FLAMES!

The Flames are in a way better position to kick this off than the Kings were. Toffoli, Lindholm, Hanifin, Tanev, Backlund, and Zadorov are all right there to load up on picks.

Friggin' rebuild.

[Johnny Makarov]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

zadarov fell off a cliff 50 games ago

You could say Hanifin and Rasmus did the same. Worst defensive pairing on our team for the last half of the season. Playing every game loosey goosey like they did in their crap effort against the Oilerz in the playoffz.

Also Scorp hates him for some unknown reason. He even hated him after his "allstar" season last year with us.

[Huntingwhale]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

That's why you have to have a plan and set an expectation on organizational behaviors. Even of you are in the playoff mix, you still trade all your pending UFA's by the deadline. These guys have delivered next to nothing in results this far for the team. So don't get tricked into thinking they suddenly will. They are not elite players and will be overplayed good players. The type of thing that results in a team that alternates between first round loss and miss the playoffs.

But in 17 seasons since the lockout this team has not figured this out yet. So I get why everyone thinks it will happen again. The track record is exactly this.

Originally Posted by Ashes

The fact that Nashville sold off solid assets at the deadline, dealt with major injuries to their core, brought up kids and gave them opportunity, and now have a slim chance to make the playoffs (ahead of the Flames).. is absolutely unreal. I hope Nashville gets lucky and sneaks in, what a great story that would be for them and a great slap in the face to our own short-sighted management group.

I feel like it's been glaringly obvious to the majority of the fandom (especially here on CP) since about December that we were in for a rough season, with very slim playoff chances and we should get a few assets back at the Deadline. But no, the narrative from the GM, Fan960, etc. was "we don't want to take away from our team right now", "we are still in this thing", just classic Flames to let pride and ego get in the way of capitalizing on a chance to get some picks while also opening up spots for the young guys to play down the stretch.. which may have been exactly the kind of energy infusion we needed heading into that final playoff push (ala Nashville). Woof. Garbage bag day can't come soon enough.

You can throw CP into the mix too. There are a few of us that would consistently like to see UFAs being shipped out by the trade deadline, unless it is 100% a given this team is going places come playoffs. Over the past 30+ years, those kinds of seasons have been few and far in between. So other than blind loyalty and gut feelings, there should be zero reason to have kept expiring UFAs for runs that never materialized. However when it comes time to talk about that, it almost immediately gets shut down here for the reasons you said; don't want to take away from the team and nobody trades their top players when they making a playoff push. Well, 30+ years of ineptitude tells us that this kind of thinking simply does not work with this franchise, and perhaps we should try it out for a while, regardless if other teams are/aren't doing the same.

Last season with Gaudreau on a tear and leading the division, sure you could make a case for keeping him (although I would have been on board if the GM made the unconventional choice to trade him). Team looked like gangbusters but I think deep down most of us know it wasn't our season to win it all. But this season struggling to claw their way to an 8th spot and a certain 1st round pounding, everyone should have been on the block. I have really grown to love Tyler Foli. Wasn't a massive fan of the acquisition last season, but this year he was very easily the team's MVP AINEC. Imagine the haul he could have gotten. But sure, I guess it's cool to see him hit new career highs and score a couple more clutch goals for a team going nowhere. Woohoo

[Paulie Walnuts]

Dube and Huberdeau did play together vs Arizona and showed some chemistry he even hit a post and that was it for that duo.

Sutter was quick to blow up the lines, even blowing up our most consistent group in Backlund Coleman and Mangipane.

Something also felt off and different about the camp and preseason.

We have some good players but coaching is a big part of the game now and our coaches didn't put them in a position to succeed.

We had a 115 point player , you need to utilize him and give him some rope to do his thing that made him that type of player the same way you did last season to Johnny and Matthew.

Instead Sutter turned him into another foot soldier and reduced his ice time by almost 4 minutes a game.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Teroy

This season isn't on Sutter. It's on Huberdeau, Kadri and Markstrom. 23.5 million dollars in 2023/24 and they crapped the bed.

Nah, it's on Sutter's stubborn ass too.

[Johnny Makarov]

Originally Posted by Teroy

This season isn't on Sutter. It's on Huberdeau, Kadri and Markstrom. 23.5 million dollars in 2023/24 and they crapped the bed.

It's 100% on Sutter. because I liked him so much as a coach i gave him until game 67 to come to my senses.

His PP deployment, his choice of starting goalies, his lack of punishment towards lazy ass play from the players cost us a top 2 seed in the West.

Like there is NO WAY Kadri should have saw the ice again in the 3rd period after his 2 giveaways led straight to goals. Also his lack of accountability after the game should have made him sit his ass in the press box the next game.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by MillerTime GFG

No, b/c winning the division in the last few years has only led to one playoff series win, in which we had to scrape and claw a 7-game series win vs a WC team.

My big picture vision is a chance to win the cup. Is yours not? Is making the playoffs good enough for you? I mean, if that makes you happy then so be it, but I just don't understand that.

To be fair, I think a lot of people also find it difficult to understand people who call themselves "fans" of a team but only enjoy the team when they are legitimate championship contenders. And you haven't done a particularly good job in explaining how limiting what you can enjoy about a team like that is actually beneficial in any way.

Not that being critical isn't fun, too, but the way you've framed it just seems like an excuse to have less fun overall. It kind of goes against the point of being a fan in the first place.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I'm not eliminating that.

But I certainly don't take Sutter at his word for anything.

I mean they have an analytics department. I can't see them not noticing their shot volume was resulting in great attempts, shots and some medium, but they were falling in high danger.

I think the make up of the team plays a role in it. Is that 80% of the problem or 20% of the problem I don't know.

We can’t have it both ways

If the Flames have an analytics department, and they know they are 31st in cross zone passes, and they don’t plan to improve on that, then is it not a clearly acceptable byproduct of the game plan?

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by MillerTime GFG

No, b/c winning the division in the last few years has only led to one playoff series win, in which we had to scrape and claw a 7-game series win vs a WC team.

My big picture vision is a chance to win the cup. Is yours not? Is making the playoffs good enough for you? I mean, if that makes you happy then so be it, but I just don't understand that.

First off I don't see the past as a lock on what happens in the future.

Different people in different roles in different times with different rosters. And people can change their minds / directions.

So I don't see a point in wallowing in the worst case scenario going forward, even if I'm wrong.

There is literally zero fun in that, and that's what this is about to me.

When they win it's fun. But when they don't I don't rush to the site to regurgitate a sky is falling mantra. I let it go and watch Succession with my wife.

Personally I think you're confusing big picture with an almanac.