getting a little tired of the crack/meth heads

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

You disagree that more money for low income people can lead to a decrease in homelessness?

I think the disagreement is that a marginally small increase in income won’t have a significant effect on preventing homelessness. It’s not going to move somebody from a paycheque to paycheque existence to the next level up.

[you&me]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Perhaps some tiered sheltering would help? If you are really a mess, you only get access to the lowest spaces. You can work your way up, and if the better shelters have maybe a reward for stepping up, you can incentivize some movement. Better beds, food, etc. Maybe private rooms as you go up. You then also keep the real bad apples from the ones at least trying. Different service levels appropriate to the care they need for each tier. I think some of it is just a feeling of hopelessness. Humans respond to reward and motivation.

I admittedly don't know how shelters work, but it doesn't sound like this is how if works currently and something like this sounds like a (huge) step in the right direction. As it is currently, it sounds like a few inmates have taken over the asylum.

It seems there's a multi-pronged approach that could help the majority of people (both the "public" and homeless) and it seems to involve various means of segregation... Keep the bad apples in jail longer, keep them someplace they can receive focussed help for addictions and other mental issues and basically keep them away from everyone else. Meanwhile, those that have a path towards being productive members of society have safe supports to do so, without the risk and compromise posed by the bad apples.

[jar_e]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Perhaps some tiered sheltering would help? If you are really a mess, you only get access to the lowest spaces. You can work your way up, and if the better shelters have maybe a reward for stepping up, you can incentivize some movement. Better beds, food, etc. Maybe private rooms as you go up. You then also keep the real bad apples from the ones at least trying. Different service levels appropriate to the care they need for each tier. I think some of it is just a feeling of hopelessness. Humans respond to reward and motivation.

This is the model Calgary Drop In uses. How successfully they implement it is likely up for debate.

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

How much money? How much of a decrease?

If you give every low income person a million dollars you’ll eliminate homelessness completely. But that’s not what you’re referring to, is it? So give some indication you’ve actually put thought into this.

I wouldn’t propose “giving” anyone anything. I would propose letting them keep more of the money they earn. How much? I have not decided, I would definitely need to do a lot of research before I have a figure - and that is not going to happen.

My thought was that allowing low income people keep more of the money they earn could reduce they rate of homelessness.

If you want, you could tell me how that could not possibly work.

[chemgear]

Originally Posted by chemgear

Odds they were out on bail from other charges beforehand?

Huh. Shocked, absolutely shocked. How long before he's freed again.

Not even a robbery, just stabbing random people for the fun of it. Open season downtown and along the Crime Train.


https://calgary.ctvnews.ca/how-long-...rged-1.6342618

Shane Walsh had just finished an appointment in downtown Calgary early Monday afternoon when he says a man, whom he didn't know, ran at him from behind and stabbed him several times.

"I felt a stab in my back and then there was some quite quick, hard thrusts in my abdomen, my shoulder, my arm," Walsh told CTV News on Tuesday.

Calgary Police allege a man stabbed at least two more people and assaulted another in a spree that spanned several city blocks before he was arrested in the East Village around 1:10 p.m.

Walsh says the man who stabbed him didn't try to rob him or take any of his belongings. He says the man only said to him, "I've disappeared" before Walsh ran away.

Chad Elliott Carrick, 29, is the man charged in the series of stabbings and assaults. He's facing four counts of assault with a weapon, two counts of assault, one count of causing mischief under $5,000 and one count of failing to comply with a release order.

"That individual was out on bail. That individual was out for another serious crime at the time that that happened with conditions not to possess knives and that's what he used to stab Calgarians," CPS Chief Const. Mark Neufeld told journalists Tuesday.

"It's like, in the movies, people die when they get stabbed, so one of the things I was thinking is 'how long do I have to live?

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by Wormius

I think the disagreement is that a marginally small increase in income won’t have a significant effect on preventing homelessness. It’s not going to move somebody from a paycheque to paycheque existence to the next level up.

I would argue the exact opposite, that a marginal increase in income could be the difference between someone keeping their place and becoming homeless, although I do not have any statistics to back that up.

[STAMPEDRED]

Originally Posted by chemgear

Huh. Shocked, absolutely shocked. How long before he's freed again.

Not even a robbery, just stabbing random people for the fun of it. Open season downtown and along the Crime Train.


https://calgary.ctvnews.ca/how-long-...rged-1.6342618

Shane Walsh had just finished an appointment in downtown Calgary early Monday afternoon when he says a man, whom he didn't know, ran at him from behind and stabbed him several times.

"I felt a stab in my back and then there was some quite quick, hard thrusts in my abdomen, my shoulder, my arm," Walsh told CTV News on Tuesday.

Calgary Police allege a man stabbed at least two more people and assaulted another in a spree that spanned several city blocks before he was arrested in the East Village around 1:10 p.m.

Walsh says the man who stabbed him didn't try to rob him or take any of his belongings. He says the man only said to him, "I've disappeared" before Walsh ran away.

Chad Elliott Carrick, 29, is the man charged in the series of stabbings and assaults. He's facing four counts of assault with a weapon, two counts of assault, one count of causing mischief under $5,000 and one count of failing to comply with a release order.

"That individual was out on bail. That individual was out for another serious crime at the time that that happened with conditions not to possess knives and that's what he used to stab Calgarians," CPS Chief Const. Mark Neufeld told journalists Tuesday.

"It's like, in the movies, people die when they get stabbed, so one of the things I was thinking is 'how long do I have to live?

I’ll say it:

Our ‘justice’ system is bull####.

A native guy goes on a killing spree last year and the media won’t say it was on a reserve. Yet, the guy had already been released 59 times by the parole board! Constantly refusing to call a spade a spade. In that instant playing the ‘race’ card.

I’m this instance, same set of circumstances - different person / background though.
When will any of these #######s be the ones thrown in prison for relentlessly putting the public —> knowingly! in harm? There was a reason they had been arrested before, and yet what happens now? Even worse than what he had been in trouble from before. So how long until he is on the street again?

Because that is what our bull#### ‘justice’ system does.

And for comparison: truckers last year - people got arrested for ‘mischief’ (a total bottom of the barrel of any charges that could be laid) and refused bail for months. But someone else who is a clear danger to society: here’s the open door, we trust you are an upstanding citizen.

Here’s a new flash: these people who are out on the streets need real help, not just catch and release and think they are magically going to change when they are homeless out on the street again.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

I would argue the exact opposite, that a marginal increase in income could be the difference between someone keeping their place and becoming homeless, although I do not have any statistics to back that up.

Well, you could look at what is the biggest contributor to homelessness and it’s probably losing your job. So maybe someone saved a few extra bucks because they weren’t paying taxes on their salary, then what? A short buffer to pay necessities, and then it’s the same end-result. Instead, if everyone’s taxes went to providing some services and benefits to those when they need it, since not everyone who is in a paycheque to paycheque situation will necessarily fall on those hard times.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

I am no expert, but most of what I've seen about this suggested people feel it's a safety issue and that the shelters themselves are less safe than being outdoors. What I've heard people say in interviews here in Vancouver is that people feel more likely to be physically or sexually assaulted in shelters.

Yeah, I'm not too big of a man to say I would be terrified to spend a night in one of those.

Are we dancing around what we know needs to be done? Drug-abusing homeless people need to be locked in a facility. Like a mental-health institution. Mandated sobriety with no access to drugs. Locked up at night. Lights out at 10. Wake up at 8. Hour in the yard twice a day. Vocational schools. Counselling.

It needs to be a prison/mental institution/rehab centre hybrid.

Moving beyond the quoted post onto the lowering taxes comments. Good grief. STFU about that. It's embarrassing all of us. You're talking 28 steps down the road. We're talking about insane drugs we've never encountered before a decade or two ago and the resulting #### show it has created that needs to be addressed yesterday.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by STAMPEDRED

I’ll say it:

Our ‘justice’ system is bull####.

A native guy goes on a killing spree last year and the media won’t say it was on a reserve. Yet, the guy had already been released 59 times by the parole board! Constantly refusing to call a spade a spade. In that instant playing the ‘race’ card.

I’m this instance, same set of circumstances - different person / background though.
When will any of these #######s be the ones thrown in prison for relentlessly putting the public —> knowingly! in harm? There was a reason they had been arrested before, and yet what happens now? Even worse than what he had been in trouble from before. So how long until he is on the street again?

Because that is what our bull#### ‘justice’ system does.

And for comparison: truckers last year - people got arrested for ‘mischief’ (a total bottom of the barrel of any charges that could be laid) and refused bail for months. But someone else who is a clear danger to society: here’s the open door, we trust you are an upstanding citizen.

Here’s a new flash: these people who are out on the streets need real help, not just catch and release and think they are magically going to change when they are homeless out on the street again.

Not to get off topic here, but they didn't get bail because they were to dumb to figure out how to manage their bail conditions. They were given many opportunities to get it right. It has nothing to do with the justice system and everything to do with them being dumb.

[puckedoff]

Originally Posted by blankall

Vancouver started clearing tents off the sidewalks today:

https://bc.ctvnews.ca/city-province-...rium-1.6341426

Lots of protests. All traffic has been diverted from the area.

Alberta will have to one-up the response in order to keep the Vancouver tent cities to set up shop here. Maybe we will see a race to heavy handedness in police response etc. I don't think the AB courts have capacity to deal with this either way.

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by Wormius

Well, you could look at what is the biggest contributor to homelessness and it’s probably losing your job. So maybe someone saved a few extra bucks because they weren’t paying taxes on their salary, then what? A short buffer to pay necessities, and then it’s the same end-result. Instead, if everyone’s taxes went to providing some services and benefits to those when they need it, since not everyone who is in a paycheque to paycheque situation will necessarily fall on those hard times.

No doubt that losing a job would be a big contributor to homelessness. I would not argue that. Job loss would be a different issue than what I was addressing.

[Russic]

Originally Posted by Sliver

You'd be amazed at how compassion fatigue can erode the biggest of hearts after you've tried to help a few people through addiction issues as they rocket toward their own annihilation as everyone who cares about them gets repeatedly burned. Too many people are callously (unintentionally, for sure) oblivious to the destruction one addict can cause to an entire circle of people. It's frustrating to hear people talk about using nicer words to describe a whirling dervish hellbent on ruining their own lives and scarring (and scaring) the people around them for months and years on end, yet who are quick to be "shocked" at how the actual victims (sober people just trying to navigate life, which as we all know, isn't easy for anybody) can and do have an end to their rope.

Do addicts deserve compassion? Yes. But there is only so much compassion any one of us are capable of giving and I suggest the better approach is to reserve the bulk of your compassion for the 25+ people being hurt on an ongoing basis by every one addict. At least the addict gets high, doesn't have to work, and can just do whatever the #### they want whenever the #### they want. That seems a lot more fun than sneaking to meeting rooms in an office to place a few calls during the day to manage the affairs of an addict, then spending evenings and weekends ####ing around cleaning up their messes while trying to be supportive of an individual who makes detrimental decision after detrimental decision.

I would love to have a softer approach to these people. I didn't start out jaded. I was beat down into it and now I'm just realistic and I don't appreciate the lack of concern for family and friends of addicts - let alone the public at large - versus the ridiculous amount of care and compassion we're supposed to expel from this magical bottomless pit of concern we're supposed to somehow have. And how much time do you think we should all be dedicating to holding some meth addicts hands through their nonsense? Should I take away two hours a week from my family? Guy, in my experience it's double that a day when things go sideways. So now my kids are out a dad, my wife is out a husband and I'm stressed to the max because you want me to have unending compassion for a druggie. No, thanks. Tried that and it's hopeless.

We need to get them the #### off the streets. Just like you'd do with anybody else who broke the law over and over. So, yeah, we're beyond platitudes. It's time for tangible solutions and everything else is getting frightening close to the Southpark-sniffing-farts-out-of-a-wine-glass gif (which I'm not going to go so far as to accuse you of or do you the disrespect of posting that gif).

I adore that gif and if you'd like to use it to describe me it would be some much-needed levity in this thread.

I actually feel like you and I probably agree on more than you'd realize. You've clearly had some heavy experiences and you sound like you were an excellent friend/family member to somebody and I'm sorry it didn't work out.

I completely empathize with compassion fatigue and have zero hesitation saying I'd be swimming in it if I had to walk in your shoes. It's for that reason I don't really judge or blame anybody for their opinions in this thread (despite what my tone may have you believe). We're all just a tangled mess of experiences trying to figure it all out.

When I say I don't think we have it in us to rehabilitate the current crop of drug-addicted people out there, I'm not claiming it's because people are sh*t and don't care, it's because the level of care required is beyond what we can reasonably offer. We've all got spouses and jobs and kids and problems... it's not like any of us are swimming in bandwidth.

When I originally made my comment that nobody even views these people as people, I wasn't necessarily saying you all need to dig in and find compassion, but rather that I think we're further away from a solution than most realize. This problem is 400-level physics but we haven't even nailed down subtraction yet.

The facts are unkind. The percentage of people who can kick an opiate habit is depressingly low. The only people who seem to be able to succeed are in high-paying careers and have pre-existing social circles to help them. Your average street person? If anybody knows the true figure please share, but I think it's lower than 1%.

This is why I take such a pessimistic approach to the current wave of addicts. If I've given you the impression that I think you need to just do some breathing exercises and find some empathy then I apologize because I wasn't clear. It is likely too late for the vast majority of them.

This is why I believe my focus needs to be on the drug wave that's coming in 20 years by doubling our efforts for the families and kids who haven't gotten into this mess yet but are on the wrong trajectories.

For the violent ones in the current crop, I do feel they need to be removed from society and incarcerated. It only kicks the can down the road, but it's probably the only solution we've got in the short term (and even then it's probably far more complicated than we realize).

You make a good point about asylums. We deemed them cruel (because they were run cruelly) and got rid of them without replacing them. Today if you have schizophrenia and a family unable to care for you, how do you even stay off the street?

Anyways, I'm sorry for what you went through. Sounds like an impossible situation and you tried more than most would.

[STAMPEDRED]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Not to get off topic here, but they didn't get bail because they were to dumb to figure out how to manage their bail conditions. They were given many opportunities to get it right. It has nothing to do with the justice system and everything to do with them being dumb.

Mischief charges. Mischief. That’s it. And denied bail on mischief charges? What is that even?

Yet here we go, dude was arrested for more than mischief (easily done to the honest - and no charges be never been arrested nor charged: mischief is essentially the cop saying we’ve got nothing at all on you but we think maybe - that’s it.)

So dude was arrested, released. And you think the justice system is running great where a mischief charge is all you need to not approve bail cause they wouldn’t agree to the crowns ludicrous requests - yet here’s two instances given above (one current, one last year) and you’ll state justice system is fine?

It’s the parole board and others that relentlessly release these folks back into society, whom the cops did their role in arresting on legit charges in the first place, - they are the ones that are to be locked and not given any chance of parole / bail. They are the ones that are the true menace to society.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by STAMPEDRED

Mischief charges. Mischief. That’s it. And denied bail on mischief charges? What is that even?

Yet here we go, dude was arrested for more than mischief (easily done to the honest - and no charges be never been arrested nor charged: mischief is essentially the cop saying we’ve got nothing at all on you but we think maybe - that’s it.)

So dude was arrested, released. And you think the justice system is running great where a mischief charge is all you need to not approve bail cause they wouldn’t agree to the crowns ludicrous requests - yet here’s two instances given above (one current, one last year) and you’ll state justice system is fine?

It’s the parole board and others that relentlessly release these folks back into society, whom the cops did their role in arresting on legit charges in the first place, - they are the ones that are to be locked and not given any chance of parole / bail. They are the ones that are the true menace to society.

Every one commits mischief who wilfully

(a) destroys or damages property;

(b) renders property dangerous, useless, inoperative or ineffective;

(c) obstructs, interrupts or interferes with the lawful use, enjoyment or operation of property; or

(d) obstructs, interrupts or interferes with any person in the lawful use, enjoyment or operation of property.


Punishment

(2) Every one who commits mischief that causes actual danger to life is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for life.

Marginal note:Punishment

(3) Every one who commits mischief in relation to property that is a testamentary instrument or the value of which exceeds five thousand dollars

(a) is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years; or

(b) is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.

https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/...ction-430.html

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Russic

I adore that gif and if you'd like to use it to describe me it would be some much-needed levity in this thread.

I actually feel like you and I probably agree on more than you'd realize. You've clearly had some heavy experiences and you sound like you were an excellent friend/family member to somebody and I'm sorry it didn't work out.

I completely empathize with compassion fatigue and have zero hesitation saying I'd be swimming in it if I had to walk in your shoes. It's for that reason I don't really judge or blame anybody for their opinions in this thread (despite what my tone may have you believe). We're all just a tangled mess of experiences trying to figure it all out.

When I say I don't think we have it in us to rehabilitate the current crop of drug-addicted people out there, I'm not claiming it's because people are sh*t and don't care, it's because the level of care required is beyond what we can reasonably offer. We've all got spouses and jobs and kids and problems... it's not like any of us are swimming in bandwidth.

When I originally made my comment that nobody even views these people as people, I wasn't necessarily saying you all need to dig in and find compassion, but rather that I think we're further away from a solution than most realize. This problem is 400-level physics but we haven't even nailed down subtraction yet.

The facts are unkind. The percentage of people who can kick an opiate habit is depressingly low. The only people who seem to be able to succeed are in high-paying careers and have pre-existing social circles to help them. Your average street person? If anybody knows the true figure please share, but I think it's lower than 1%.

This is why I take such a pessimistic approach to the current wave of addicts. If I've given you the impression that I think you need to just do some breathing exercises and find some empathy then I apologize because I wasn't clear. It is likely too late for the vast majority of them.

This is why I believe my focus needs to be on the drug wave that's coming in 20 years by doubling our efforts for the families and kids who haven't gotten into this mess yet but are on the wrong trajectories.

For the violent ones in the current crop, I do feel they need to be removed from society and incarcerated. It only kicks the can down the road, but it's probably the only solution we've got in the short term (and even then it's probably far more complicated than we realize).

You make a good point about asylums. We deemed them cruel (because they were run cruelly) and got rid of them without replacing them. Today if you have schizophrenia and a family unable to care for you, how do you even stay off the street?

Anyways, I'm sorry for what you went through. Sounds like an impossible situation and you tried more than most would.

All good. Would be nice to fill in the vagueness with some colour, but public forum and all hah.

Since drugs got us into this mess, just maybe they can get us out. I'll smoke a bowl tonight and pretend it was me jumping out of a tent and wrestling snarling packs of wolves away from hapless tourists.

Good post, though. What a ####ty problem.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by chemgear

Walsh says the man who stabbed him didn't try to rob him or take any of his belongings. He says the man only said to him, "I've disappeared" before Walsh ran away.

surprise, surprise. Sounds like mental health issues

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by STAMPEDRED

Mischief charges. Mischief. That’s it. And denied bail on mischief charges? What is that even?

Yet here we go, dude was arrested for more than mischief (easily done to the honest - and no charges be never been arrested nor charged: mischief is essentially the cop saying we’ve got nothing at all on you but we think maybe - that’s it.)

So dude was arrested, released. And you think the justice system is running great where a mischief charge is all you need to not approve bail cause they wouldn’t agree to the crowns ludicrous requests - yet here’s two instances given above (one current, one last year) and you’ll state justice system is fine?

It’s the parole board and others that relentlessly release these folks back into society, whom the cops did their role in arresting on legit charges in the first place, - they are the ones that are to be locked and not given any chance of parole / bail. They are the ones that are the true menace to society.

I'm just going to stop you there to remind you that no one gives two sh-ts about the f--king Trucker Convoy clowns and to take it to its own thread. This isn't the thread for it.

[81MC]

Originally Posted by Cappy

surprise, surprise. Sounds like mental health issues

‘Mental health issues’ can explain a hell of a lot of behaviour. I feel like it’s awfully close to being used to excuse a hell of a lot of behaviour as well, which is not a good way to be.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by 81MC

‘Mental health issues’ can explain a hell of a lot of behaviour. I feel like it’s awfully close to being used to excuse a hell of a lot of behaviour as well, which is not a good way to be.

Yeah, painting literally every anti-social behavioral problem with "mental illness" really only serves to cut violent offenders a break while simultaneously stigmatizing people with actual mental illnesses.