Can a mini rebuild be done and is this the perfect year to do it?

[edslunch]

A scorched earth sell everyone for picks rebuild is unlikely to happen, but what about a retool? The team needs to get younger but it doesn't need to go all in on picks.

First of all, don't sign any more older players to their big contracts.

2024 UFAs:
Lindholm and Toffoli are due for big contracts after next season. Trade them for good prospects or younger players who could break out. A contender might trade an Iggy for a Lindholm. But don't wait until the deadline - if the team is in or close to a playoff spot, which they would be with these players, it will be next to impossible give up the season.

You could extend Backlund and Tanev if they are ok with the same or lower, as retirement contracts. Otherwise, or if the opportunity arises, trade for prospects. Trading all 4 of these players is unlikely and starts to look like a full rebuild.

Hanafin you extend. He's young for a defenceman and still has upside and a long runway. You're looking to get prospects as good as him, not to get rid of him. Kylington you definitely extend if he comes back.

Zadorov, Gilbert, Rooney - wait until after next season. I'm probably only interested on Zadorov.

2023 UFAs - let Lucic, Stone walk; sign Lewis, Ritchie, Stecher if they fill a hole. I'm more likely to sign Stecher than the others.

Sign all RFAs

Trade Vladar to make room for Wolf

All other long term players can stay. Anderson and Weegar are part of the core, Mangipane is a keeper if he bounces back a bit. Coleman is similar to Backlund, decent value until he starts to decline, but won't fetch a ton with his contract length. Huberdeau and Kadri ought to be part of the core and hopefully bounce back, but they're not tradeable for anything decent either. Markstrom similar.

So basically this year's team with a couple of big names and bit parts out, a few high end prospects/young players and some picks coming back, Wolf and hopefully a few other homegrown prospects coming in for extended looks at least. A down season, but not a race to the bottom.

[Jason14h]

Why half arse it ? You want to take this years 16th place team and remove Toffoli and Lindholm while resigning Backlund and Tanev and …. Then what ?

That seems like the worst case scenario .

This team is in no position for a retool or mini rebuild . You either go for it next year and hope key players bounce back or burn it to the ground

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

I didn't think of chemistry issues. Personally I think that you move heaven and earth to sign lindholm. 9M range is a comfortable hit.

The only players who played well together were dube-lindy-toffoli, and that's a top line that doesn't strike fear.

I think that you have to put huberdeau and lindy together, and find a true sniper (coranoto?) to complete the line. That's why I see mangiapane as the odd man out, with kadri-dube on the se one line, potentially with Pelletier.

Insanity, we already have Kadri and Huberdeau on senior citizen contracts.

I like Lindholm for what he brings but he's not a play driving center and he'll be 30 by the time a new contract kicks in, 9m is 3m too much at his age, trade him.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Why half arse it ? You want to take this years 16th place team and remove Toffoli and Lindholm while resigning Backlund and Tanev and …. Then what ?

That seems like the worst case scenario .

This team is in no position for a retool or mini rebuild . You either go for it next year and hope key players bounce back or burn it to the ground

Going for it next year would be essentially burning it to the ground seeing that assumes they won't move any of their expiring deals and they mostly all move on in free agency without recouping assets which would probably send this organization into a long and drawn out rebuild as the prospect cupboard is bare. It would be very foolish but also very Calgary Flames.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

There is also 11 teams that could get Bedard. 6 of those 11 teams, if they get him likely are better than the Flames are next year.

Philly
Vancouver
Washington
Detroit
St Louis
Columbus

I also think Fantilli is likely to be a instant impact player. Any of those 6 teams get him they likely are better than the Flames. Especially if Lindholm wants out and is moved. Can't replace him at that salary and their cap situation.

Not sure why you'd expect a giant turn around for the team that gets a draft pick in year 1.

Oilers got McDavid in 2015 draft - went from 28th in the standings to 29th after McDavid - granted did improve by 8 points.

Some of those teams aren't that bad to begin with and will have tiny chances to get #1 pick.. but not sure why Colombus is going to go from god awful to good with the addition of Bedard.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Going for it next year would be essentially burning it to the ground seeing that assumes they won't move any of their expiring deals and they mostly all move on in free agency without recouping assets which would probably send this organization into a long and drawn out rebuild as the prospect cupboard is bare. It would be very foolish but also very Calgary Flames.

Going for it can also entail signing as many of their UFA's before the season starts and setting up another few years of the 'window'

(Although I agree your above scenario is totally plausible)

For example if you really believe in this 'core' (I don't) and you already have Kadri and Hubs signed for the next 7 years really lean into it, front load some retirement contracts to get the cap hit lower.

Backlund 8 years @ 30 million (3.75/year until 41)

Toffoli 8 years @ 41 million (5.125/year until 39) - Just took the RNH contract as an example

Lindholm 8 years @ 66-70 Mil (8-9 Mil, hopefully you can get it closer to the 8 side going longer term or maybe even high 7's)

Tanev 5 years @ 20 mil (4 mil a year enough at his age and injuries? Locking in a guaranteed 20 million at his age may allow you to keep cap hit down? Maybe you need to go to 6 years 23 million front loaded or something)

You then trade Hanifin for cheaper D and or /assets, and then flip those assets and your 1st next year to replenish D at a lower cap hit.

Mangi could also be dangled to see if there are takers to clear up some cap flexibility. I would actually try to get rid of both in the offseason.

Vladar needs to be dumped gone, and you're fine for next year bringing back essentially the same roster minus Hanifin and/or Mangi and going into 2024/25 with the following

Hub (10.5) - Kadri (7) - Pelletier (RFA Contract - 3m)
Toffoli (5.125) - Lindholm (8.5) - Dube (RFA Contract 3.5)
Coronato (.925) - Backlund (3.75) - Coleman (4.9)
Zary (.86) - TBD rest of 4th line (2.5m)

Andersson (4.55) -- Weegar ( 6.25)
Tanev (4) -- Hanifin assets used replacement (5?)
Poirier ( .823) -- 5th/6th UFA D (3 - 4)

Markstrum (6)
Wolf (.813)

That roster comes to 81.5 Million (Some random guesses on Dube and Pelletier RFA contracts as it depends on their performance

24/25 is expected to be 87-88 million. Leaving ~ 7 million for bench and upgrades

You could let Dube walk and have ~ 10 million upgrade his slot, or upgrade the 5th/6th D slot that I allocated 3-4 million for.

You could also just sign Hanifin instead of trading him for the "Hanifin Assets D" i have allocated 5 million for, and dump Mangi in this offseason (lets assume 7.5 million/year long term for Hanifin) leaving the above roster having Hanifin on the D instead of Hanifin replacement, with ~ 2.5 million to sign your bench players/cap flexibility.

Now can that team above win for the next few years? I personally don't think so. However, you can make the cap hit work if you believe this team can be a contender and don't want to rebuild.

[traptor]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Going for it can also entail signing as many of their UFA's before the season starts and setting up another few years of the 'window'

(Although I agree your above scenario is totally plausible)

For example if you really believe in this 'core' (I don't) and you already have Kadri and Hubs signed for the next 7 years really lean into it, front load some retirement contracts to get the cap hit lower.

Backlund 8 years @ 30 million (3.75/year until 41)

Toffoli 8 years @ 41 million (5.125/year until 39) - Just took the RNH contract as an example

Lindholm 8 years @ 66-70 Mil (8-9 Mil, hopefully you can get it closer to the 8 side going longer term or maybe even high 7's)

Tanev 5 years @ 20 mil (4 mil a year enough at his age and injuries? Locking in a guaranteed 20 million at his age may allow you to keep cap hit down? Maybe you need to go to 6 years 23 million front loaded or something)

You then trade Hanifin for cheaper D and or /assets, and then flip those assets and your 1st next year to replenish D at a lower cap hit.

Mangi could also be dangled to see if there are takers to clear up some cap flexibility. I would actually try to get rid of both in the offseason.

Vladar needs to be dumped gone, and you're fine for next year bringing back essentially the same roster minus Hanifin and/or Mangi and going into 2024/25 with the following

Hub (10.5) - Kadri (7) - Pelletier (RFA Contract - 3m)
Toffoli (5.125) - Lindholm (8.5) - Dube (RFA Contract 3.5)
Coronato (.925) - Backlund (3.75) - Coleman (4.9)
Zary (.86) - TBD rest of 4th line (2.5m)

Andersson (4.55) -- Weegar ( 6.25)
Tanev (4) -- Hanifin assets used replacement (5?)
Poirier ( .823) -- 5th/6th UFA D (3 - 4)

Markstrum (6)
Wolf (.813)

That roster comes to 81.5 Million (Some random guesses on Dube and Pelletier RFA contracts as it depends on their performance

24/25 is expected to be 87-88 million. Leaving ~ 7 million for bench and upgrades

You could let Dube walk and have ~ 10 million upgrade his slot, or upgrade the 5th/6th D slot that I allocated 3-4 million for.

You could also just sign Hanifin instead of trading him for the "Hanifin Assets D" i have allocated 5 million for, and dump Mangi in this offseason (lets assume 7.5 million/year long term for Hanifin) leaving the above roster having Hanifin on the D instead of Hanifin replacement, with ~ 2.5 million to sign your bench players/cap flexibility.

Now can that team above win for the next few years? I personally don't think so. However, you can make the cap hit work if you believe this team can be a contender and don't want to rebuild.

That is terrifying from a long term cap management view. We would have ~75million tied up in 8 guys deep into theirs 30s for the next decade on a team that night barely scrape into playoffs. Would be damning for this team.

[Lanny_McDonald]

There's no such thing as a mini-rebuild. You have to commit and recognize you're in for some rough waters ahead and there are no short-cuts. Do it right or don't do it at all. We've missed the boat on this draft, so we're talking about next year at the earliest.

[Sylvanfan]

Yeah the Flames do look stuck between a rock and a hard place with their roster. With 3 major long term deals the tendency will be to try and retool this. Especially since the next three years for Kadri and Huberdeau should be their best ones.

But I'm not too crazy about Huberdeau and Kadris contracts. So if you are going to double down on this group or something close to it. I would try to get the term on Taffoli, Backlund, Tanev to end by the expiration of Kadris deal.

Last year was the time to start the painful rebuild, and you could still do it. But it's a hard 6 year commitment to flush out much of this current roster.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Not sure why you'd expect a giant turn around for the team that gets a draft pick in year 1.

Oilers got McDavid in 2015 draft - went from 28th in the standings to 29th after McDavid - granted did improve by 8 points.

Some of those teams aren't that bad to begin with and will have tiny chances to get #1 pick.. but not sure why Colombus is going to go from god awful to good with the addition of Bedard.

I picked the teams I picked because they have a really good base already.

I picked Columbus because they have had arguably the worst injury season you can possibly have. I bet they will be much better even if they don't get Bedard. The rest of the teams aren't that far off already.

Plus this also is if the Flames have players like Lindholm request trades. Already over the cap, add trying to replace your #1 center with probably $3 mil cap to work with after moving out his $4.85 cap (already a steal of a deal). Some of this is the Flames sliding not these teams all gaining 10+ points

[Northendzone]

I am conflicted:

1. This idea is crazy enough it just might work

2. The flames should reload rather than rebuild

[Erick Estrada]

I personally think they absolutely have to move one of Kadri or Lindholm at the draft. Just can't have both of them signed into their late 30's. Yes Lindholm is a good player but his market value is going to be very high for a guy that's not a game breaker. He's more of a missing piece to a cup contender than he is a guy that moves the needle for a team treading water like the Flames.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by traptor

That is terrifying from a long term cap management view. We would have ~75million tied up in 8 guys deep into theirs 30s for the next decade on a team that night barely scrape into playoffs. Would be damning for this team.

Yes it would be the team for the next 3/4 years , then you rebuild from scratch and deal some higher cap hit low actual salaries in years 6 and 7 (as you come out of rebuild )

Not saying it’s the path I would take , but this team can extend their “window” 3-4 years if they choose too with this team before being forced kicking and screaming into a rebuild

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

Yeah the Flames do look stuck between a rock and a hard place with their roster. With 3 major long term deals the tendency will be to try and retool this. Especially since the next three years for Kadri and Huberdeau should be their best ones.

But I'm not too crazy about Huberdeau and Kadris contracts. So if you are going to double down on this group or something close to it. I would try to get the term on Taffoli, Backlund, Tanev to end by the expiration of Kadris deal.

Last year was the time to start the painful rebuild, and you could still do it. But it's a hard 6 year commitment to flush out much of this current roster.

I think some of you folks are trolling at this point.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I personally think they absolutely have to move one of Kadri or Lindholm at the draft. Just can't have both of them signed into their late 30's. Yes Lindholm is a good player but his market value is going to be very high for a guy that's not a game breaker. He's more of a missing piece to a cup contender than he is a guy that moves the needle for a team treading water like the Flames.

Lindholm is 4 years and 2 months younger than Kadri. Even if you re-sign him to a 8 year deal it's 3 years into the deal before he is Kadri's age.

Trading Lindholm now because you don't want to be stuck with 2 older centers in 3 years doesn't change the fact that it's the Kadri deal that is much worse than Lindholm's next deal.

This team trades Lindholm the only way I could see them doing a quick re-tool and being better is if they move Markstrom and Wolf comes up and plays like a legit #1

[Goriders]

Pretty sure you’re going to have a mini rebuild every year due to expiring contracts, free agency and addition of players from the minors.

Next offseason being a prime example.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

Lindholm is 4 years and 2 months younger than Kadri. Even if you re-sign him to a 8 year deal it's 3 years into the deal before he is Kadri's age.

Trading Lindholm now because you don't want to be stuck with 2 older centers in 3 years doesn't change the fact that it's the Kadri deal that is much worse than Lindholm's next deal.

This team trades Lindholm the only way I could see them doing a quick re-tool and being better is if they move Markstrom and Wolf comes up and plays like a legit #1

the Flames should trade Lindholm because they would get (less than) nothing for Kadri.

[Fan69]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

the Flames should trade Lindholm because they would get (less than) nothing for Kadri.

Exactly why I stated in my original post some names were stuck with unless we give them away or pay to do it. We need a young top six Center and we need a top three D. Can we get those and more with some shrewd trades of guys who have some value on expiring contracts? I say if you can find the player and a willing partner yes. What if we had a ( off the top of my head and maybe overvaluing ) a cole caufield type of player pushing backs and Kadri down the Center depth chart?

To me it’s like the Hamilton situation except we have a Center and defencemen that pretty much can’t be figured long term. Can you get two foundational pieces in those trades ? I say yes.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

the Flames should trade Lindholm because they would get (less than) nothing for Kadri.

But the Flames should only trade Lindholm if they are willing to rebuild.

Trading Kadri for nothing is still something, especially if you trade him and don't retain any salary. But we are probably stuck with him or at least a Lucic type contract that is shorter term coming back.

If the new GM or Brad said this team is going into a rebuild, I'm ok to trade Lindholm. But they won't and if we trade Lindholm it won't be for picks and prospects only. I also see the team trying to fill the hole and it will just make things way worse for much longer if we do.

Keeping Lindholm and moving out older players, this team could figure it out in the next 1-3 years IMO

Toffoli has been great, but will he be this great next year? He's 32 when his contract is up.

Backlund has been great. But for how much longer? He's 35 when his contract is up

Mangiapane is turning it around, but is he a $5.8 mil player?

Pelletier, Zary, Coronato are more likely to replace guys like Backlund in his mid 30s, Toffloi or Mangiapane than Lindholm.

Once again, it's ok to trade Lindholm if your plan is to rebuild. But so many have said this team won't rebuild. They lost Johnny and Tkachuk demanded a trade and yet they still did not rebuild.

If the Flames trade Lindholm it won't be for a 1st and 2 prospects like some suggest. It will be for a younger roster player and a lessor than a 1st round pick or a very late first round pick. Why? Because this team won't rebuild

[Macho0978]

Lindholm is often compared to Bergeron. Sure, he isn't as good as Bergeron, but he does do a lot of things very well. Players who have had career years in Calgary playing with Lindholm.

Tkachuk (matching the points this season, but not the overall play)
Gaudreau (twice)
Monahan
Toffoli

Sure he and Huberdeau didn't click but the 4 guys above all had their best years playing with Lindholm. You trade him and you're rebuilding whether you like it or not.