Russia invades Ukraine

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

Yea I don't get it, by now doesn't the average Russian soldier know that Ukraine is a deathtrap? Why is it preferable for them to continue to go there and die instead of deserting at the very least?

Russia is anything but a democracy. Who knows what kind of things happen to soldiers who desert, or their families for that matter. Putin increased the maximum penalty to 10 years in prison for deserters, but there are lots of reports of deserters being threatened with execution, and I'd imagine the prison conditions for deserters are less than ideal.

[curves2000]

I am firmly on Team Ukraine in this battle but on the Russian side, it's not hard to see how things and information get's really murky.

We have the benefit of the media and more open and honest government telling us the situation on the ground, thus we are for the most part supporting getting Russia out of Ukraine!

Russian soldiers are being told their own stories. "Your protecting Russia! They have weapons that can hurt the motherland, we are fighting NATO and the West. We need to win in order to protect our family and our children for the future" etc etc.

Some of the information that comes out and some of the propaganda from Russia is reminiscent of the Irag war and the American BS that came out of that.

I guess what I am trying to say is that for a lot of Russian soldiers, they probably feel like they are doing good for Russia in their minds. It would be similar to how a lot of American fighters thought they were doing good in Iraq.

At the end of the day, a handful of men in suits are playing their game and the planet's population is paying the price in a lot of different ways.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by curves2000

I am firmly on Team Ukraine in this battle but on the Russian side, it's not hard to see how things and information get's really murky.

We have the benefit of the media and more open and honest government telling us the situation on the ground, thus we are for the most part supporting getting Russia out of Ukraine!

Russian soldiers are being told their own stories. "Your protecting Russia! They have weapons that can hurt the motherland, we are fighting NATO and the West. We need to win in order to protect our family and our children for the future" etc etc.

Some of the information that comes out and some of the propaganda from Russia is reminiscent of the Irag war and the American BS that came out of that.

I guess what I am trying to say is that for a lot of Russian soldiers, they probably feel like they are doing good for Russia in their minds. It would be similar to how a lot of American fighters thought they were doing good in Iraq.

At the end of the day, a handful of men in suits are playing their game and the planet's population is paying the price in a lot of different ways.

Yes, and what is your point?

How do you explain away the documented and widespread atrocities (murder, rape, torture, destruction of property) perpetrated by individuals? A Russian soldier who believe in the cause can still conduct himself professionally in combat. But they don't. Just ask Huntingwhale.

[curves2000]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Yes, and what is your point?

How do you explain away the documented and widespread atrocities (murder, rape, torture, destruction of property) perpetrated by individuals? A Russian soldier who believe in the cause can still conduct himself professionally in combat. But they don't. Just ask Huntingwhale.

I am in no way at all making any excuses or in favor of any of that. That is absolutely horrific and should not have happened at all. I am in total favor of the west quite wasting ****ing time and getting rid of Putin and company with a direct warning. Stop this or else you and your families are officially done. Full stop. Russia can not compete with the west militarily and Putin knows this.

When people wonder why Russian soldiers don't just give up and just go to get their legs blown off and killed, it's probable that they just believe the BS being fed to them by the Kremlin. Along the way, we have the horrific atrocities you mention.

It's not that different from the BS from America and the Iraq war. Plenty of people were in favor of being in Iraq because "planes were being used as weapons on 9-11" despite no evidence that Iraq was involved.

Lot's of American's were totally on board with invading Iraq, lot's of solders did the fighting and believed in the cause of "bringing freedom" to them. Along the way, we had thousands of solders killed, with missing limbs and hundreds of thousands of people dead. Horrific atrocities committed by American's too, let's not forget.

My point is also, rather than leaders lecturing you and I about how they care about peace, refugee's, human rights, women's rights the environment etc

Just deal with the problem, we have the ability to. We don't need more death, refugee's, more rape, more missing limbs, more famine, more inflation etc. More programs to try and pretend they are harming Russia with sanctions while at the same time allowing this war to continue to be funded.

If the handful of men in suits quit playing the game and actually took care of the problem, we would have a drastic reduction in the issues your speaking about. I am firmly on Team Ukraine 1000%, but I am not naïve to see how this is being played out on the geopolitical stage.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by curves2000

I am in no way at all making any excuses or in favor of any of that. That is absolutely horrific and should not have happened at all. I am in total favor of the west quite wasting ****ing time and getting rid of Putin and company with a direct warning. Stop this or else you and your families are officially done. Full stop. Russia can not compete with the west militarily and Putin knows this.

When people wonder why Russian soldiers don't just give up and just go to get their legs blown off and killed, it's probable that they just believe the BS being fed to them by the Kremlin. Along the way, we have the horrific atrocities you mention.

It's not that different from the BS from America and the Iraq war. Plenty of people were in favor of being in Iraq because "planes were being used as weapons on 9-11" despite no evidence that Iraq was involved.

Lot's of American's were totally on board with invading Iraq, lot's of solders did the fighting and believed in the cause of "bringing freedom" to them. Along the way, we had thousands of solders killed, with missing limbs and hundreds of thousands of people dead. Horrific atrocities committed by American's too, let's not forget.

My point is also, rather than leaders lecturing you and I about how they care about peace, refugee's, human rights, women's rights the environment etc

Just deal with the problem, we have the ability to. We don't need more death, refugee's, more rape, more missing limbs, more famine, more inflation etc. More programs to try and pretend they are harming Russia with sanctions while at the same time allowing this war to continue to be funded.

If the handful of men in suits quit playing the game and actually took care of the problem, we would have a drastic reduction in the issues your speaking about. I am firmly on Team Ukraine 1000%, but I am not naïve to see how this is being played out on the geopolitical stage.

I must be naive because I don't know what you are talking about here.

[curves2000]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

I must be naive because I don't know what you are talking about here.

Really?? How do you think this war is being financed from Russia's perspective?? From energy revenues and until those crater to a drip, Putin can continue his assault. What ever happened to "No more Russian energy?" I guess it's probably not too politically popular to pursue so instead we have price cap schemes, a lack of proper insurance for oil tankers who carry the energy and sanction free energy trade by countries who continue to buy it. Those countries include China and India, are we really laying down the hammer with these countries on the economic sanction front if they continue to, in essence, pay for the war?

Why is the goal to try and slowly bleed out the Russian army to the benefit of the west as opposed to stopping the war and it's associated rape, murder and all that?

Why is the west not providing more military assistance to actually defeat Russia with stronger counteroffensives ?

Airspace is required to be closed and is closely monitored by US airforce personnel wherever the US President is located. Somehow, with advanced notice, Russia sent military jet's into the airspace during Biden's visit to Ukraine so that they can play it up on their end, not that they had a strategy to bomb the US delegation. Perhaps they gave advanced notice on that front as well ?

Lot's and lot's of politics at play with this game on both sides. Back channel dealings and tiptoeing around certain topics. Recent reporting that in the fall when Putin was going all hot and heavy with a potential local nuclear strike in Ukraine, it was made very clear to him by France, US and the UK that any sort of strike with a nuclear weapon would result in significant conventional military action.

Like I said before, I am on Team Ukraine but this is dragging out longer than it needs to be and the geopolitical aspects are significant .

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by curves2000

Really?? How do you think this war is being financed from Russia's perspective?? From energy revenues and until those crater to a drip, Putin can continue his assault. What ever happened to "No more Russian energy?" I guess it's probably not too politically popular to pursue so instead we have price cap schemes, a lack of proper insurance for oil tankers who carry the energy and sanction free energy trade by countries who continue to buy it. Those countries include China and India, are we really laying down the hammer with these countries on the economic sanction front if they continue to, in essence, pay for the war?



Why is the goal to try and slowly bleed out the Russian army to the benefit of the west as opposed to stopping the war and it's associated rape, murder and all that?



Why is the west not providing more military assistance to actually defeat Russia with stronger counteroffensives ?



Airspace is required to be closed and is closely monitored by US airforce personnel wherever the US President is located. Somehow, with advanced notice, Russia sent military jet's into the airspace during Biden's visit to Ukraine so that they can play it up on their end, not that they had a strategy to bomb the US delegation. Perhaps they gave advanced notice on that front as well ?



Lot's and lot's of politics at play with this game on both sides. Back channel dealings and tiptoeing around certain topics. Recent reporting that in the fall when Putin was going all hot and heavy with a potential local nuclear strike in Ukraine, it was made very clear to him by France, US and the UK that any sort of strike with a nuclear weapon would result in significant conventional military action.



Like I said before, I am on Team Ukraine but this is dragging out longer than it needs to be and the geopolitical aspects are significant .

In the west, rulers need popular support or they lose power. They cannot abide insanely high energy prices. The price cap is actually the most effective lever we've got. How do you propose we stop China or India from buying oil? That would cause oil prices to go waaaaaay up and poor countries would revolt completely. Even if we could cut off non western countries from Russian O&G, the ramifications on the global welfare would be devastating. Instead, they allow the oil to be sold at an ever decreasing price allows for oil prices to remain reasonable whilst destroying Russia's margins

[curves2000]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

In the west, rulers need popular support or they lose power. They cannot abide insanely high energy prices. The price cap is actually the most effective lever we've got. How do you propose we stop China or India from buying oil? That would cause oil prices to go waaaaaay up and poor countries would revolt completely. Even if we could cut off non western countries from Russian O&G, the ramifications on the global welfare would be devastating. Instead, they allow the oil to be sold at an ever decreasing price allows for oil prices to remain reasonable whilst destroying Russia's margins

I actually agree with your line of thinking, I was playing devils advocate in some ways. It's a complicated matter but I am getting myself off topic. I stand by my initial thoughts on why Russian solders continue to go into battle despite knowing it's a death sentence, some of them believe the nonsense that is being fed to them by the Kremlin.

It's not that different than the nonsense from the American side of the ledger when the US invaded Iraq. As I had stated before, a handful of men in suits continue to play the game much to the worlds detriment.

We will see how things turn out but at what point do we reach an inflection point? Ukraine and it's President don't want a single Russian solder on it's land at the end of this and every inch including Crimea back. Is that going to actually happen? Will the US support that? Will the US give in for peace and slice off a little bit of Ukraine for Russia and call it tie? Who knows but in the end the geopolitical situation will always be interesting.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by curves2000

Really?? How do you think this war is being financed from Russia's perspective?? From energy revenues and until those crater to a drip, Putin can continue his assault. What ever happened to "No more Russian energy?" I guess it's probably not too politically popular to pursue so instead we have price cap schemes, a lack of proper insurance for oil tankers who carry the energy and sanction free energy trade by countries who continue to buy it. Those countries include China and India, are we really laying down the hammer with these countries on the economic sanction front if they continue to, in essence, pay for the war?

Why is the goal to try and slowly bleed out the Russian army to the benefit of the west as opposed to stopping the war and it's associated rape, murder and all that?

Why is the west not providing more military assistance to actually defeat Russia with stronger counteroffensives ?

Airspace is required to be closed and is closely monitored by US airforce personnel wherever the US President is located. Somehow, with advanced notice, Russia sent military jet's into the airspace during Biden's visit to Ukraine so that they can play it up on their end, not that they had a strategy to bomb the US delegation. Perhaps they gave advanced notice on that front as well ?

Lot's and lot's of politics at play with this game on both sides. Back channel dealings and tiptoeing around certain topics. Recent reporting that in the fall when Putin was going all hot and heavy with a potential local nuclear strike in Ukraine, it was made very clear to him by France, US and the UK that any sort of strike with a nuclear weapon would result in significant conventional military action.

Like I said before, I am on Team Ukraine but this is dragging out longer than it needs to be and the geopolitical aspects are significant .

Actually completely cutting off Russia from the global market would result in disastrous consequences globally, and the people who would pay the price would almost exclusively be the poor and countries not involved in the war.

There are already countries with severe energy shortages because Europe has been gobbling up all the LNG in the market, and there's not enough left for everyone else. The energy market is global, so if you cut a massive exporter like Russia completely off it, it would cause chaos everywhere as people couldn't afford their daily lives.

Additionally, the oil situation is actually being handled almost brilliantly. The combination of sanctions and price caps has created a situation where Russia is still selling plenty of oil to the global market, but making barely any profit of it as they're forced to offer it at such a huge discount to India and China. It's basically a win-win for the rest of the world currently.

Not to mention that putting the hammer down in China is just unrealistic at this point. We're much more dependent on them than they are of us.

Russia also produces 90% of fertilizer on the global markets btw. There's really good reasons why Russia needs to be kept in the global marketplace.

As for Russian jets in Ukraine airspace; according to Russian reporting, they have a minimum 16 jets in Ukrainian airspace at any given time.

As for why NATO isn't "just stopping" the war, that would require direct attack by US forces against Russian forces, and that's a no-no because people are rightfully concerned it might cause WW3.

If the US thought it could get away with just blowing up the Russian invasion force and their support structure, they would absolutely LOVE that.

As for why there's hasn't been more support through arms deliveries; the amount of direct support given to Ukraine is already at history making levels. There could be more, sure, but the reasoning behind sending arms support is complicated. There's no guarantee that sending more equipment would just win the war for Ukraine. In fact there's no guarantee ANY amount of equipment could win the war for Ukraine, at least not quickly, but possibly not at all, because Russia doesn't have to stop even if their troops are driven out if Ukraine. There's also huge issues of operation and maintenance.

Do I think more should have already been done? Yes, but I don't blame countries for being overly cautious in a situation like this.

There's no precedent for a war like this, ever. People love to make sweeping claims about how easy this situation would be to handle if only this or that, but usually, like clearly in your case, they're mostly born out of ignorance of the full complexity of the situation.

This is a big, complicated, difficult and dangerous situation that has the potential of causing the literal end of the world if mishandled.

It's already going much better than expected for everyone else and much worse for Russia. It's not unreasonable to want even more, but saying it's all just power games or whatever it is you're suggesting is ridiculous.

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by curves2000

I actually agree with your line of thinking, I was playing devils advocate in some ways. It's a complicated matter but I am getting myself off topic. I stand by my initial thoughts on why Russian solders continue to go into battle despite knowing it's a death sentence, some of them believe the nonsense that is being fed to them by the Kremlin.

It's not that different than the nonsense from the American side of the ledger when the US invaded Iraq. As I had stated before, a handful of men in suits continue to play the game much to the worlds detriment.

We will see how things turn out but at what point do we reach an inflection point? Ukraine and it's President don't want a single Russian solder on it's land at the end of this and every inch including Crimea back. Is that going to actually happen? Will the US support that? Will the US give in for peace and slice off a little bit of Ukraine for Russia and call it tie? Who knows but in the end the geopolitical situation will always be interesting.

why play this game at all?
Look at your posts recently coming at this from an anti west/pro russia slant. Or moreso from a consipracy theory about a few men in suits running the world.
You've been leading us to believe that you're both sides/many sides about the war and it's being prolonged by the elite. Now you're saying you're only "playing devils advocate"?

If you believe what you're saying just own it, instead of hiding behind being a devils advocate.

[activeStick]

The UN Security Council was unable to get the votes needed to open an international investigation into the Nordstream explosions yesterday.

https://apnews.com/article/russia-uk...6362a1038badd8

Russia, China and Brazil voted in favor of the Russian request, but other Security Council members abstained or said another investigation was unnecessary.

The countries that are not supportive of the ask to investigate the explosion and abstained from voting were France, the US, the UK, Albania, Ecuador, Gabon, Ghana, Japan, Malta, Mozambique, Switzerland and the UAE.

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by activeStick

The UN Security Council was unable to get the votes needed to open an international investigation into the Nordstream explosions yesterday.

https://apnews.com/article/russia-uk...6362a1038badd8

The countries that are not supportive of the ask to investigate the explosion and abstained from voting were France, the US, the UK, Albania, Ecuador, Gabon, Ghana, Japan, Malta, Mozambique, Switzerland and the UAE.

Behind closed doors they already know who is responsible. Remember when Russia shot down MH17 and wanted to be directly involved in the "investigation" to muddy the waters, then blew a hissy fit when they weren't? It took awhile but investigative journalists like Bellingcat/prosecutors eventually tracked down the exact BUK SAM system used, which Russia unit and the soldiers responsible for order/pulling the trigger, got a hold of intercepted Russian calls ordering the attack, and satellite images of the panicked cover-up moving the SAM system back into Russia to be scrubbed.

Russia being directly involved would only cover things up, much like when the entire Polish presidential staff died in that 2010 Smolensk air "accident".

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by FlameOn

Behind closed doors they already know who is responsible. Remember when Russia shot down MH17 and wanted to be directly involved in the "investigation" to muddy the waters, then blew a hissy fit when they weren't? It took awhile but investigative journalists like Bellingcat/prosecutors eventually tracked down the exact BUK SAM system used, which Russia unit and the soldiers responsible for order/pulling the trigger, got a hold of intercepted Russian calls ordering the attack, and satellite images of the panicked cover-up moving the SAM system back into Russia to be scrubbed.

Russia being directly involved would only cover things up, much like when the entire Polish presidential staff died in that 2010 Smolensk air "accident".

According to the NY Times the leading theory is that it was a group tied to Ukraine that blew up Nordstream. If so would make sense that Russia wants it investigated and everyone else is like 'old news/get over it'.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/07/u...e-ukraine.html

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by curves2000

Really?? How do you think this war is being financed from Russia's perspective?? From energy revenues and until those crater to a drip, Putin can continue his assault. What ever happened to "No more Russian energy?" I guess it's probably not too politically popular to pursue so instead we have price cap schemes, a lack of proper insurance for oil tankers who carry the energy and sanction free energy trade by countries who continue to buy it. Those countries include China and India, are we really laying down the hammer with these countries on the economic sanction front if they continue to, in essence, pay for the war?

Why is the goal to try and slowly bleed out the Russian army to the benefit of the west as opposed to stopping the war and it's associated rape, murder and all that?

Why is the west not providing more military assistance to actually defeat Russia with stronger counteroffensives ?

Airspace is required to be closed and is closely monitored by US airforce personnel wherever the US President is located. Somehow, with advanced notice, Russia sent military jet's into the airspace during Biden's visit to Ukraine so that they can play it up on their end, not that they had a strategy to bomb the US delegation. Perhaps they gave advanced notice on that front as well ?

Lot's and lot's of politics at play with this game on both sides. Back channel dealings and tiptoeing around certain topics. Recent reporting that in the fall when Putin was going all hot and heavy with a potential local nuclear strike in Ukraine, it was made very clear to him by France, US and the UK that any sort of strike with a nuclear weapon would result in significant conventional military action.

Like I said before, I am on Team Ukraine but this is dragging out longer than it needs to be and the geopolitical aspects are significant .

Yes, Russia is financing their invasion using their energy exports. How is that "geopolitical"?

Ukraine's defense is being financed by the West. This isn't some deep state stuff, it's known.

There's no easy way to end this war because of the ever present nuclear threat. The best case scenario is that Ukraine's military becomes so powerful it sweeps Russian forces back to 1991 borders (and stops there).

[curves2000]

Originally Posted by GordonBlue

why play this game at all?
Look at your posts recently coming at this from an anti west/pro russia slant. Or moreso from a consipracy theory about a few men in suits running the world.
You've been leading us to believe that you're both sides/many sides about the war and it's being prolonged by the elite. Now you're saying you're only "playing devils advocate"?

If you believe what you're saying just own it, instead of hiding behind being a devils advocate.

Anti West? Pro Russia/Putin? If you have read my posts previously in this thread dating back to 2022, you would know that is the most insane argument to have made. I have been on record as saying the west should have taken a much stronger stance on this and from years ago. Many mistakes were made by the decision makers.

Well it's not really a conspiracy theory, the decision makers in these matters like this really are a handful of men. It's not you and I making decisions and the President of Uganda.

If you took some of the bias out and saw just how much destruction Putin has unleashed on the entire globe as a single person, it's not a conspiracy.

When I say that war is a game that is being played by these people, in a lot of ways that is true. If we look at the US and their political situation regarding this, they are for the most part very united in this battle. A great opportunity to take out an adversary militarily, to advance their agenda in the region and to test out and learn additional military equipment and tactics on the battlefield.

It is like a game to them. Tit for tat, cat and mouse. Biden show's up in Ukraine and than Russia launches jet's over Presidential airspace. The International Criminal Court launches and arrest warrant for Putin and he or his body double walk right into Ukraine shaking hands with "locals" about what a beautiful place Mariupol is.

Like I said, we will see where this ends. Zelensky is adamant nothing short of 100% of Ukraine including Crimea is acceptable to him and his people, will America, even though it "supports Ukraine 100% for the long term" actually allow and impose onto Russia a loss of that magnitude? Or will Ukraine still lose a lot of territory but be provided with security guarantee's and longer term equipment for safety, equipment that they had pleaded for since day 1?

In this war, the handful of men do make the decisions and sign the chq's while other's keep the coffee warm. It's just the way it works.

[curves2000]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Yes, Russia is financing their invasion using their energy exports. How is that "geopolitical"?

Ukraine's defense is being financed by the West. This isn't some deep state stuff, it's known.

There's no easy way to end this war because of the ever present nuclear threat. The best case scenario is that Ukraine's military becomes so powerful it sweeps Russian forces back to 1991 borders (and stops there).

It's literally the definition the of word geopolitics. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/geopolitics

I never said anything about deep state, tinfoil hat stuff but let's get real, when it comes down to the nitty gritty certain decisions are being made with regards to this war that, perhaps, may not be in some best interests.

Ukraine is known to have the military capability and the technical knowhow to actually launch an offensive to take back Crimea but has been told by the US, NO! We don't want to upset Putin. That is your equivalent being prevented from kicking out an invader out of your own home because the security company says no, we don't want to upset the bugler and have him go next door.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/nat...imea-rcna61755

We are both on the exact same side , we really are. I guess where we may differ is on what is being said publicly and what will happen privately.

When then west says "We support Ukraine 100% for the long term" and Zelensky says "We demand 100% of Ukraine, including Crimea back" The reality will probably be something along the lines of

"Z, you fought an incredible battle, but that isn't happening. Russian's in Crimea won't getting up and leaving for Siberia. We gotta strike a balance with an appropriate level of embarrassment for Putin, if we overdue it, it will be bad. We gotta compromise . Russia will agree to this and that, China will agree to this and and that and we (west) will agree to this and that. It's over, we are pulling significant support and getting back to business."

[burn_this_city]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1640917137135943681

[burn_this_city]

Hopefully helps bag a couple possible war criminals down the road.

[FlamesAddiction]

So Hungary's parliament officially voted to allow Finland into NATO with a vote of 182 to 6. It was already pretty much a given, but now it is official. Turkey still has to ratify, but signs point to them doing it.

Hungary is still holding out on Sweden. Most people believe that if you had a vote today, it would pass as well but Orban is holding out on them hoping to get funds released to them that were held back because of their failure to meet certain EU standards. Literally blackmail by Orban. Having said that, they are probably going to put it to a vote before the Hungarian election in May, so I wouldn't be surprised if Sweden is approved by Hungary by then. Of course, Turkey still needs to, which may be an issue.

https://www.france24.com/en/europe/2...membership-bid

[Huntingwhale]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

https://twitter.com/user/status/1640917137135943681

The tweet doesn't mention in the title how this is the team responsible for the Mariupol theatre bombing. You know, the place that was clearly labelled as CHILDREN and the russians commited the terrorist attack there anyways. Hundreds murdered trying to take refuge in a "safe place" in possibly the biggest single massacre of innocent Ukrainians (that we know of so far) during this invasion.

Sorry if anybody is offended if I dEhUmANiZe these POS for a moment, but #### these Orcs and especially their commanding officer Sergei Atroshchenko, who is shown giving the thumbs up. Not allowed to write how I truly feel about these people but I'm sure the feeling is mutual for most of us here.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1640668979508248579