I just want to distance my opinion on the actual jersey/logo from takes like this. I have other Flames Pride things and I 100% support Pride and everything around it. Frankly, a couple of my friends have debated bidding on a jersey to gift me because they know I don't like these actual jerseys, despite being 100% supportive of Pride and LGBTQ issues in general.
I know, no one here has lambasted me for not liking the jersey, but I just feel like I want to be crystal clear that my opinion is on the actual jersey and nothing to do with the cause or other positions that might be somewhat linked!
I like to think it’s easier than you think to tell the difference between someone who doesn’t like the jersey because they don’t like this particular floral/nature pattern, and someone who doesn’t like the jersey because they’re a bigoted loser.
The latter tell on themselves pretty quickly. It’s fine not to like a jersey because the design does nothing for you. I hated the Sharks Pride jersey.
The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to PepsiFree For This Useful Post:
I agree with your sentiment that no one should feel forced to wear it. But the players are not being forced...that's why some are opting out around the league. And I hope most people are mature enough to fully support every player's right to make that decision for themselves.
I actually think the voluntary aspect of participation in pride makes the message substantially stronger. If something's optional and you get 95% of people participating, I think thats a lot more genuine and authentic a statement than forcing 100% compliance. The NHL isn't celebrating pride because they feel obligated to. They're doing it because the vast majority of people in the organizations - including the players - genuinely want to. I think that's a wonderful reflection of social inclusion.
How do you feel knowing that while it's optional, every single player on the flames wants to do it anyways? That even though they could have opted out, they wanted to go ahead with it. To me, that's makes it substantially more meaningful
I did not know that the wearing of the pride jersey is optional. Thank you for clarifying that.
My contention, however, is that the reason why every single player on the Flames wants to seemingly wear the pride jersey is that they feel peer pressured to wear it due to groupthink and also not wanting to be singled-out by the media.
Don't think for a second that it's truly optional. It's as options as getting the vaccine were, and look how that worked out. This is bullying, no matter what you say.
Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk
This is truely optional, just as vaccines are truely optional.
Optional does not mean, and has never meant that there are no consequences for choices. Consequences are fundamental to choices being choices. If there are no consequences, then a choice is meaningless and not a choice at all.
This weird idea some people have that their choices should not have consequences is an incredibly anti-freedom position. This position is stating that only some people get freedom, because everyone else is not allowed to be free to make their own choices because those choices are consequences . That is a dictatorship, where only a few people can do what they want, while everyone else is forced to be do what those people want.
If you want to say you hate my friends and family based on how they were born, that is your choice. If you want to demonstrate through your actions that you do not care about the health of my friends and family, that is your choice. My choice will be that you are not welcome around my frienda and family, and to think that you are a terrible person. We all get the freedom to make our choices, and to deal with the consequences.
Other people having freedom only looks like bullying to the actual freedom hating bullies.
The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to Bandwagon Surfer For This Useful Post:
I did not know that the wearing of the pride jersey is optional. Thank you for clarifying that.
My contention, however, is that the reason why every single player on the Flames wants to seemingly wear the pride jersey is that they feel peer pressured to wear it due to groupthink and also not wanting to be singled-out by the media.
It’s more likely that they understand it’s just a gesture that says everyone is welcome at our rink, on our team, etc, than some explicit promotion of anything. You’re assuming the players have some archaic, bigoted, or misguided view about Pride they are being forced to hide, which is pretty silly.
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to PepsiFree For This Useful Post:
My contention, however, is that the reason why every single player on the Flames wants to seemingly wear the pride jersey is that they feel peer pressured to wear it due to groupthink and also not wanting to be singled-out by the media.
lmao, "group think."
You're right, more people should take the courageous stand that it's their god given right to do hate crimes at the Saddledome.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Locke
Thats why Flames fans make ideal Star Trek fans. We've really been taught to embrace the self-loathing and extreme criticism.
We don't need to get carried away either. As dumb as Reimer (and others') decisions were, they weren't hate crimes.
Okay so, was I being somewhat hyperbolic? Yeah.
But likely less so than you think. I wasn't intending to say that not wearing a pride jersey is a hate crime. But pushing back on the idea that it's 'group think' to acknowledge that folks are welcome in Hockey.
A lot of the folks here that think there is forced diversity or whatever may not be the ones who followed my friend and I last summer yelling slurs at us from their truck, my friend and I not knowing how it would escalate,
but citing reasons you don't want to acknowledge folks are welcome, in my opinion you're enabling and emboldening those that feel we're not welcome.
For me, there is a direct line that ends in violence. Which is only magnified and even more dangerous when you talk about the misogyny within our broader culture and it's direct line to violence against women.
EDIT: Adding more
When this whole discussion first came up I did my darndest to meet folks where they're at, to share my perspective. Essentially to live my values. This whole discussion has taken a todl on my personally, as a queer person, who isn't fully out to everyone I know because of safety or other concerns. It's been the first instance since I chose to drive back deep into my love of hockey that's made me question if it's worth it. I didn't even last a full season of me wondering if it's worth it. Some of the views expressed in this thread have down more harm to that than how depressing the Flames themselves have been
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Locke
Thats why Flames fans make ideal Star Trek fans. We've really been taught to embrace the self-loathing and extreme criticism.
I did not know that the wearing of the pride jersey is optional. Thank you for clarifying that.
My contention, however, is that the reason why every single player on the Flames wants to seemingly wear the pride jersey is that they feel peer pressured to wear it due to groupthink and also not wanting to be singled-out by the media.
It's possible.
I think it's more likely that the players are mostly swedish/Canadian gen-z and millennials who live in urban centers and for the vast majority of these people, gay rights are a long settled matter. I think in Canada support for gay rights is over 90% across these two generations of younger people and that's going to be skewed to further support in larger cities like Calgary. It seems entirely plausible that every player on the flames would want to do this.
It's not really surprising that it's mostly been older and Russian players who have opted out, where cultural views on this issue start to become more diverse. Staals and Reimer are from rural Ontario and rural mannitoba and are in their mid-30s.
At this point, I don't even view support for gay pride as a controversial political statement for a younger person. It was a progressive position pre-2002 maybe. Now it's just a mainstream view. This isn't edgy except for conservative people who are either behind the times or progressive people who think everyone outside their bubble is a bigot.
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to GullFoss For This Useful Post:
I did not know that the wearing of the pride jersey is optional. Thank you for clarifying that.
My contention, however, is that the reason why every single player on the Flames wants to seemingly wear the pride jersey is that they feel peer pressured to wear it due to groupthink and also not wanting to be singled-out by the media.
Good thing we had that "groupthink" and "bullying" during the civil rights movement.
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Infinit47 For This Useful Post:
But likely less so than you think. I wasn't intending to say that not wearing a pride jersey is a hate crime. But pushing back on the idea that it's 'group think' to acknowledge that folks are welcome in Hockey.
A lot of the folks here that think there is forced diversity or whatever may not be the ones who followed my friend and I last summer yelling slurs at us from their truck, my friend and I not knowing how it would escalate,
but citing reasons you don't want to acknowledge folks are welcome, in my opinion you're enabling and emboldening those that feel we're not welcome.
For me, there is a direct line that ends in violence. Which is only magnified and even more dangerous when you talk about the misogyny within our broader culture and it's direct line to violence against women.
EDIT: Adding more
When this whole discussion first came up I did my darndest to meet folks where they're at, to share my perspective. Essentially to live my values. This whole discussion has taken a todl on my personally, as a queer person, who isn't fully out to everyone I know because of safety or other concerns. It's been the first instance since I chose to drive back deep into my love of hockey that's made me question if it's worth it. I didn't even last a full season of me wondering if it's worth it. Some of the views expressed in this thread have down more harm to that than how depressing the Flames themselves have been
Listen man, don't jump down my throat. Look at my posting history (mostly in the other thread). I support wearing the pride jersey, and opting out on religious grounds is dumb (and actually disingenuous).
But if you use hyperbole, it detracts from the argument that you and me are both making.
Listen man, don't jump down my throat. Look at my posting history (mostly in the other thread). I support wearing the pride jersey, and opting out on religious grounds is dumb (and actually disingenuous).
But if you use hyperbole, it detracts from the argument that you and me are both making.
Sorry about that. Didn't mean for it read like I was jumping down your thought.
More just like laying it all out there and sharing my perspective. I also generally have an issue with corporate washed pride. It just like hits me close because like I have trouble with how much I enjoy hockey and hate the wider culture. But that's a me thing.
But please know my intended tone wasn't confrontational! I do think as I outlined there is a direct line. Stuff like this is both a nothingburger, but also it's not always a nothingburger.
I do agree though that online many folks like jump on stuff like this as a holier than thou cudgel to make themselves feel better. Which I think it's too bad because than it can cover up the actual negative downstream impacts.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Locke
Thats why Flames fans make ideal Star Trek fans. We've really been taught to embrace the self-loathing and extreme criticism.
As I mentioned in the Hockey Canada thread, I find it extremely hypocritical for the NHL or NHL teams to have a 'Pride Night' but not a single one of them has spoken out or brought light to the disaster that has gone on with Team Canada at the world juniors, hazing events, locker room culture, sexual assault in hockey circles, etc. All these problems are documented and have been brought to light the last couple years, and we all know they are extremely damaging when it comes to trying to get more kids into minor hockey.
I understand that some effort is better than no effort, but the NHL can't have it both ways.
One example from a NHL executive, Brian Burke. We all know his specific reasons for speaking out in favor of Pride night, and he has valid points and good on him for being outspoken in trying to make hockey a sport for everyone.
But you can't be saying that stuff, and when asked about Hockey Canada allegations, you make excuses and say 'oh there are so many players, can't manage it all, blah, blah, blah Hockey Canada is doing a good job.' It simply doesn't work. If you have a culture of sexual assault, hazing, etc it needs to be ended, especially if you sit there and say 'oh hockey is for everyone', but make excuses for the old boys club stupidity.
There is an insane level of hypocrisy going on in the NHL right now, in the media, executives, etc and one has to wonder if it has to do with the fact that if their players would get exposed, charged and possibly kicked from the NHL, that it would affect their bottom line.
Given how Rick Westhead has struggled to bring this story to light, how Hockey Canada has stonewalled even the Federal Government, how the media and especially TSN as the media outlet that has covered the world juniors for decades, basically ignored the story for the longest time, how can we expect parents of children that are LGBTQ, or really are anything else other than the 'norm' to feel it is a good idea to involve their kids in minor hockey IN Canada, when Hockey Canada is not being held accountable for their actions, and when the NHL and major people involved in the sport of hockey like pretending the allegations don't exist?
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Azure For This Useful Post:
Encouraged but optional is my preference as a consumer. I don't like the idea of someone who doesn't share my values merely pretending to share my values on something important to me so that they can sell me their product and get me engaged in supporting them. I don't want to support someone under those circumstances.
__________________
"If stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?"
The Following User Says Thank You to JohnnyB For This Useful Post:
They should probably do both. Have more regular, every day gestures to promote welcoming and inclusion, and nights like this to drive home the point. Jersey nights are a good thing for their own sake, but it is primarily a PR and marketing thing. I don't think it's good enough to do it, and then wipe your hands like you've accomplished something. Similar to Indigenous acknowledgement initiatives. The special nights set aside are largely a PR and marketing strategy, and it is something that should become part of the regular day operations even when the cameras are off.
As for the jersey thing being a choice and players pressured into doing it, I don't really care. They should feel pressure to do it. I guess I don't see the initiative as political really, any more than anti-bullying or charity work are political. I am sure there are some players that would rather goof off on their time off rather than participate in team organized charity work, and only do so because they feel social pressure to do it. If they refused, they should be called out for it.
__________________
"A pessimist thinks things can't get any worse. An optimist knows they can."
Listen man, don't jump down my throat. Look at my posting history (mostly in the other thread). I support wearing the pride jersey, and opting out on religious grounds is dumb (and actually disingenuous).
But if you use hyperbole, it detracts from the argument that you and me are both making.
And I think it’s wise for an ally to acknowledge that they have the privilege of distancing themselves from these issues, they never have to actually live them. While your heart is obviously in the right place in wanting to strengthen the argument, for people who aren’t trying to make an argument and are just trying to live as themselves, it can be pretty exhausting to hear.
People just want to feel safe and understood around allies, not like there is this constant expectation of being emotionally distanced from the issue and polite to ensure the best argument against bigots who likely aren’t listening to an argument anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azure
As I mentioned in the Hockey Canada thread, I find it extremely hypocritical for the NHL or NHL teams to have a 'Pride Night' but not a single one of them has spoken out or brought light to the disaster that has gone on with Team Canada at the world juniors, hazing events, locker room culture, sexual assault in hockey circles, etc.
All due respect to this very important issue, it would be nice if this conversation could revolve around Pride and not why Pride doesn’t actually matter because of the Team Canada issue. That thread already exists.
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to PepsiFree For This Useful Post:
I did not know that the wearing of the pride jersey is optional. Thank you for clarifying that.
My contention, however, is that the reason why every single player on the Flames wants to seemingly wear the pride jersey is that they feel peer pressured to wear it due to groupthink and also not wanting to be singled-out by the media.
I'm sure a few players are a bit uncomfortable (for lack of a better word) with LGBTQ issues or just don't quite 'get it'. 20 or so under-educated alpha-male types, many who have lived a very sheltered life to this point (yes, broad generalizations).
These events at least prompt these individuals to consider the issue, and perhaps have some conversations with their peers. These events (and the controversies) may have a similar effect for some members of the general public.
Teeny tiny baby steps, but it's never a bad thing for people to confront a question of "why do I feel this way"?
