Sutter is the problem

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Hockey_Ninja

Lol no he wouldn’t. Mackinnon is a cut above everyone that’s on the Flames. He’s a bulldog who has elite hands, vision, shot and skating. He might not be scoring at a 100 point pace on this current team, but he’d still be a point a game player on the Flames

If he ignored the coach and his linemates did too, sure. If he played good soldier and followed what Sutter is preaching he would be lucky to hit 70 points.

[Ferarri]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Yup - leads the team at 5v5 scoring in the last 15 games with 10 points in the last 15 games.

If anything he's really started to look dangerous at 5v5 over that time too. Creating more, and IMO could probably have even a couple more points off some of his nice set ups.

He hasn't been the issue down the stretch here at all.

Absolutely he has. He’s paid to be elite and a difference maker. Sutter said it all season, when they are down by a goal who’s the guy who’s going to step up. It needs to be him and Kadri. It’s not just points (personally, 10 points in 15 games is nothing to get excited about for a player of his talent). But even if you disagree and say it’s all Sutter’s system that limits his ability etc, he hasn’t shown that he can be a difference maker. Elite players take over games. He has not.

[Ford Prefect]

Darryl Sutter is not the problem. He is also not the solution. Simple.

[Burning Beard]

Yeah has Huberdeau once taken over a game? People would harp on Johnny Hockey all the time but even in his "off" seasons he would single handily take over games and drag the team to wins. I can't recall a single Huberdeau game in a Flames jersey like that. Yet some of the same posters that harped on Johnny are defending Huberdeau. It's baffling.

[VilleN]

I don't know what the problem is but what I will say is if Huberdeau was an unknown player, based on this season I would say he is about as elite as a guy like Dube. I have seen nothing impressive in his game this year. At least with Johnny you could see the skillset even when he wasn't playing well.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Ugh. With the season on the line that's pretty inexcusable.
I don't get it.

Sutter was recently asked about ice time, said something about not talking to vets about ice-time as he expects them to earn it. Rookies he said he will talk with them a bit. Sounds like some friction going on,. I liked Bingo's comment on the "hurt feelings." Sutter reached out a bit more when he was hired but seems to have locked down his approach. There are different ways to get players to "take it to another level". Sutter may have lost that trust at the begining of the season when he didn't show faith in the player and expected too much. My feeling is he is waiting for Huberdeau, and Kadri, but I think it is important to consider the unexpected trade hurt Huberdeau, and that just added to the problem at the onset.

Sutters line usage, when the team needs to win games is a head scratcher, he has to take some responsibility for that and stop punishing a proven veteran player.

I have tried to lean away from the coach and advocate that Huberdeau is capable of taking the reins, but if he is dealing with "hurt feelings" that likely needs to be resolved for him to move forward.

[bluejays]

As much as anything I also blame Treliving about not being able to get a healthy environment and culture going with the team. I’ve the past 8 years or so it seems to be a continual theme of the team not being happy with the coach. At first I was like, f the players, but it’s continued for so long that there’s clearly no open door policy to talk to the man at the top. If the team is upset at not having a captain buffer how the f has this been going on all season? It’s on management completely. Big talk and no realistic action of creating a positive environment. Seems like a classic corporation.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Ferarri

Absolutely he has. He’s paid to be elite and a difference maker. Sutter said it all season, when they are down by a goal who’s the guy who’s going to step up. It needs to be him and Kadri. It’s not just points (personally, 10 points in 15 games is nothing to get excited about for a player of his talent). But even if you disagree and say it’s all Sutter’s system that limits his ability etc, he hasn’t shown that he can be a difference maker. Elite players take over games. He has not.

10 5v5 points in the last 15 games puts him t-24th in the NHL.

His 8 5v5 points in his last 10 games puts him t-15th in the NHL over that time frame.

Not sure what else he can do. Our PP is terrible and he's not on the top unit which is just head scratching coaching. Guy was third in the NHL in PP points the three seasons before coming here, but somehow our coaches can't figure out how to use him effectively on the PP.

But sure somehow it's still his fault. Honestly when given the chance to play in the final minute over these last 10 or so games he's been the only one creating anything.

It's funny how many of the things being said about Huberdeau now are the same things said about Tkachuk and Gaudreau after that 20-21 season.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

10 5v5 points in the last 15 games puts him t-24th in the NHL.

His 8 5v5 points in his last 10 games puts him t-15th in the NHL over that time frame.

Not sure what else he can do. Our PP is terrible and he's not on the top unit which is just head scratching coaching. Guy was third in the NHL in PP points the three seasons before coming here, but somehow our coaches can't figure out how to use him effectively on the PP.

But sure somehow it's still his fault. Honestly when given the chance to play in the final minute over these last 10 or so games he's been the only one creating anything.

It's funny how many of the things being said about Huberdeau now are the same things said about Tkachuk and Gaudreau after that 20-21 season.

PP has actually been good lately. 7 for last 21 or something like that?

You’re really not sure what else Huberdeau can do? I’m good with cutting him some slack if that’s your opinion, but absolving him of all blame for his play is too much IMO.

[SportsJunky]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

So instead Tkachuk is enjoying the "country club atmosphere and the FLA sunshine" How has he produced this year? Maybe just maybe players like being in a situation where they enjoy coming to the rink instead of dealing with Mr Grumpypants.

Let's remember that Paul Maurice isn't exactly a fun loving coach either. Not a touchy feely guy. Hell, he all but called Tkachuk a serial killer a couple of years back. I think Tkachuk just doesn't much care if the coach is pissed at his on ice decision making. Matthew is confident in his own game. Here, guys like Huberdeau seem to be scared to play outside the box in case they incur the wrath of Sutter. Who was it early this season (maybe Sarich) that said the players are afraid of Sutter and aren't allowing themselves to be creative with the puck because of it?

[boogerz]

Originally Posted by SportsJunky

Let's remember that Paul Maurice isn't exactly a fun loving coach either. Not a touchy feely guy. Hell, he all but called Tkachuk a serial killer a couple of years back. I think Tkachuk just doesn't much care if the coach is pissed at his on ice decision making. Matthew is confident in his own game. Here, guys like Huberdeau seem to be scared to play outside the box in case they incur the wrath of Sutter. Who was it early this season (maybe Sarich) that said the players are afraid of Sutter and aren't allowing themselves to be creative with the puck because of it?

Teemu Selanne put up 24g and 19a for 43pt in 16:34 ATOI during his first 70 games under Sutter in 2001-02. If you adjust the points for era, it's almost exactly the same number of points as Huberdeau's 49 pts in his first 70 games under Sutter. About the same ATOI as Huberdeau and limited PP opportunities as well.

Sutter was also notoriously hard on Teemu, which Teemu had also verified in interviews later on.

There is no guarantee that Huberdeau bounces back to ppg+ next season. Some players, which mostly seems to be pure offensive players, just cannot exist in Sutter's system...for better or for worse.

[dirk diggler]

Originally Posted by Burning Beard

Yeah has Huberdeau once taken over a game? People would harp on Johnny Hockey all the time but even in his "off" seasons he would single handily take over games and drag the team to wins. I can't recall a single Huberdeau game in a Flames jersey like that. Yet some of the same posters that harped on Johnny are defending Huberdeau. It's baffling.

that is what surprises me, "elite" players have games where they get 4 or 5 points and are truly dominant, if Huberdeau gets even a point, it is reason to celebrate. he hasnt had any true big games, which is hard to do for a full season.

[Ferarri]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

10 5v5 points in the last 15 games puts him t-24th in the NHL.

His 8 5v5 points in his last 10 games puts him t-15th in the NHL over that time frame.

Not sure what else he can do. Our PP is terrible and he's not on the top unit which is just head scratching coaching. Guy was third in the NHL in PP points the three seasons before coming here, but somehow our coaches can't figure out how to use him effectively on the PP.

But sure somehow it's still his fault. Honestly when given the chance to play in the final minute over these last 10 or so games he's been the only one creating anything.

It's funny how many of the things being said about Huberdeau now are the same things said about Tkachuk and Gaudreau after that 20-21 season.

Really? Not sure what else he can do? Even at the end of December he was listed as the most disappointing player of the season by the hockey writers. Plus many other in the hockey world have used words like "invisible" to describe his play. You don't think there is anything else he can do...

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

More specifically, as someone mentioned, the goalie tweaked something and removed himself from the game with about 6 min left. It was a surprise, not even obvious what happened

Quick comes in, ice cold, and the faceoff is in the Vegas zone.

That’s a key shift to which Bingo refers

Sutter sends out the 4th line

If you opened your door, I’m sure you could have heard ‘wtf’ in unison across the city

I have brought this up as well, and was outraged at the time, but just to clarify one point: the 4th line was already on the ice, Sutter just chose to leave them out there.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

It is annoying, I agree with you.

I'm just as annoyed at the play of certain players with the season on the line. A younger coach wouldn't have the balls to do what Sutter did which maybe is a good thing. Everyone should always have a little fear for their job. Maybe not enough people involved with this team feel that way.

Again, I don't think it's about effort.

Offensive players need time, and multiple chances, to generate something. It is very common for offensive players to be completely invisible all game, then have that one play that works.

But if you don't give them the chances, that will never happen. Putting out the 4th line for those key situations, late in the game does 2 things: first, it drastically reduces the chances of success; and second, it is an extremely deflating message to the offensive players who should be on the ice. It's a lose-lose.

Sure, there are times, over the course of the season, that the coach needs to send a message. But there are 10 games left in the season, and the FLames need to run the table if they want to make the playoffs. Sutter isn't sending coaching-messages at this point, he is deliberately undermining their chances for success. He is just being spiteful at this point, whether that's to the players, the GM, the fans, or whoever.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I have brought this up as well, and was outraged at the time, but just to clarify one point: the 4th line was already on the ice, Sutter just chose to leave them out there.

Yeah but posters here tell you if they don't get those prime offensive zone shifts when will they play? What zone do they start in.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

His methodology is that the 4th line was playing the hardest so they deserved to be on the ice. The issue being that this wasn't a game where they held the lead or were tied late so the merit thing has to go out the door. They needed a goal to get into OT and even if the 4th line was getting some good zone time throughout the game you absolutely need your best shooters and passers on the ice at the end of the game because the statistical odds are far better they could get the tying goal than the 4th line. Winning the game must come before sending messages to players that may have not been having their best game. If I was a GM in this situation where people's jobs could be on the line if they miss the playoffs this would be disappointing to see from your head coach.

Yup, it's too late in the season for the coach to be rewarding hard work, or trying to send a message. It's crunch time, and they need wins. If he is doing anything contrary to that one immediate goal, he has lost the plot.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Ferarri

Found this old quote from Brian Burke interesting regarding Markus Naslund and his relationship with Mike Kennan.

Regardless, if Sutter is back next year or shown the door I hope someone has the stones to say this to Kadri and Huberdeau:

“Mike Keenan was the coach and he was there until the All-Star break. He didn’t like Markus, Markus didn’t like him. Markus was playing very poorly and I said to Markus, ‘Look, this coach is gonna be gone long before you are.’ But I said ‘You’re stealing money right now. You’re not working hard enough, you’re not scoring goals, you’re not making anything happen – you’re just stealing money, so you’re just as guilty as the coaches, so don’t ask me for a trade. You gotta put your game together here”

I wonder what he would tell Lucic. Stolen money for the 3 years hes been here making the same cap hit and money as Huberdeau.

[81MC]

Ffs you’re questioning Lucic’s effort? Honestly?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by dirk diggler

that is what surprises me, "elite" players have games where they get 4 or 5 points and are truly dominant, if Huberdeau gets even a point, it is reason to celebrate. he hasnt had any true big games, which is hard to do for a full season.

How many players can you name with 4-5 points in one game this year?