Sutter is the problem

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

The last time Burke had a coach like this was Mike Keenan who Burke said was thr first coach he actually hated. He fired his ass.

Burke wouldn't put up with these antics from Sutter.

Jesus it’s antics now? You guys have no idea what you’re talking about and you circle around and around until you’ve turned a rain drop into a monsoon. Get a grip.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by memphusk

I think the story is maybe how soft some of these guys are.

What I find funny is that nobody here can dispute that Darryl is a my way or the highway guy, doesn't collaborate, doesn't communicate well, makes sarcastic quips, etc. Basically the exact opposite of what most here would consider an ideal boss to work for in their personal career yet players are somehow soft for feeling exactly the same as we would if placed their situation. This is a job for the players at the end of the day and when they wake up in the morning they should feel good about going to work and good about their working relationship with their boss and what's going on in their workplace. We can quit our jobs if we don't like working for our boss but these players are under contract so they just can't up and quit so I have absolutely no issue here as I believe it's just more than Huberdeau and Kadri as it's a group of players just like it was with Hartley.

[heep223]

Did something happen? Or is this all just regular banter?

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Nawww, the tired empty defense of Treliving and Sutter is bloviating, and at its finest. First excuse: The team was too close to the playoffs to sell. Well, Nashville and Washington sold, so what was Calgary's excuse? Second excuse: You don't know what was offered so you can speak to that. Problem is we've heard they didn't really start taking offers until a couple hours before the deadline. Third excuse to come: Let me show you some advanced stats that tell you what a great job management has done and what a great position the organization is in... ? Empty excuses. Every single one of them. That's bloviation my friend.

So they'd get a check mark from you for selling at any price?

And we haven't heard much of anything as to what went on beyond closed doors.

Your mocking tone towards advanced stats has always killed me; they're just so simple and easy to lay out. Hurts I know for someone that prefers a pedestal rant without data that refutes what you say at every turn though, so I get it.

Not your friend.

You are the king of bloviation.

[Bingo]

Maher on Sutter

https://twitter.com/user/status/1638662621238038528

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Maher on Sutter

https://twitter.com/user/status/1638662621238038528

Yup.

[dammage79]

I get What Maher is trying to say. But He's mindframe is the same as the rest of the old guard. TBH I may not entirely agree with it but it doesn't make the fact any less true that it's a different ballgame today compared to even pre 2010.

If you cannot communicate properly with the youth of today, it doesn't matter what system you try to.implement or get the players to buy in, it simply does not matter.

Is Sutter a great coach? One of the greatest. No dispute.

Does he have a shelf life ? 100 percent. And It's a short one.

You look at his deployment tactics this year and you cannot help but wonder if he's really lost the touch. He has to be better with his players.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Yup.

I'm certainly not posting that to say Sutter is perfect and it's all the team.

His act is wearing thin on me, and I've questioned the high shot volume system as taking away more scoring.

I think there's some real estate between guys not trying and guys just fed up with some pretty old school tactics.

But there's plenty of blame to go around.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Maher on Sutter

https://twitter.com/user/status/1638662621238038528

He's right about Darryl being a good coach and if they follow him exactly they can win but to me it all boils down to just how many players are at odds with him. If it's just two guys it's one thing but if its several players as it was with Hartley then it's just not going to work. Remember the team that Darryl won two cups with locked him out of their locker room. Those players won with Darryl but they eventually hit a point where his methods were no longer sustainable. You can't overhaul the roster just to make it work with the coach. The coach has to work with the roster he has.

[SuperMatt18]

Yeah I disagree that they didnt follow the gameplan.

They followed the gameplan for most of the season IMO, and due to poor finishing and poor goaltending they weren't getting rewarded with wins.

And I think right after the all star break is where things probably started to break down in peoples relationships. If you feel like you are doing what the coach is asking, but keep losing, and the coach just keeps hammering on you that you're not good enough it's going to strain the relationships.

[Phil Russell]

I am pretty skeptical about advanced stats. And I am a data guy. It's not they aren't measuring real aspects of player's games, but rather, that they don't seem to be really consequential when it comes to the win loss column. Or at least not always. The Flame's play this year is a case in point: I think you really have to squint hard to see silver linings in the team's play despite what the advanced stats say. This is a very average performing team.

They have a system that generates some good advanced stats but doesn't win games. And they have other more consequential problems as well like bad performances from key players and, seemingly, bad chemistry/culture. There is a lot of blame to go around for sure, but if we come ack to the what can actually be addressed and what can't, it seems like a no-brainer that Sutter has to go.

[81MC]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

What I find funny is that nobody here can dispute that Darryl is a my way or the highway guy, doesn't collaborate, doesn't communicate well, makes sarcastic quips, etc. Basically the exact opposite of what most here would consider an ideal boss to work for in their personal career yet players are somehow soft for feeling exactly the same as we would if placed their situation. This is a job for the players at the end of the day and when they wake up in the morning they should feel good about going to work and good about their working relationship with their boss and what's going on in their workplace. We can quit our jobs if we don't like working for our boss but these players are under contract so they just can't up and quit so I have absolutely no issue here as I believe it's just more than Huberdeau and Kadri as it's a group of players just like it was with Hartley.

Yeah, they’re under contract. They are fully aware of that when they sign. Want to make millions of a dollars a year playing hockey? Sometimes you might not like your coach…that’s like, no different than any contact workers. To stop doing the job you’re being paid for is in excusable, especially when your audience makes less in a year than you do in a week.

And to be clear, I don’t think the flames players are doing that. Maybe the personal conflict creeps in and is affecting performance, but for pro athletes to willfully underperform because they don’t like their boss? That’s some McDonalds employee level ####, and I don’t buy that for a second.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Phil Russell

I am pretty skeptical about advanced stats. And I am a data guy. It's not they aren't measuring real aspects of player's games, but rather, that they don't seem to be really consequential when it comes to the win loss column. Or at least not always. The Flame's play this year is a case in point: I think you really have to squint hard to see silver linings in the team's play despite what the advanced stats say. This is a very average performing team.

They have a system that generates some good advanced stats but doesn't win games. And they have other more consequential problems as well like bad performances from key players and, seemingly, bad chemistry/culture. There is a lot of blame to go around for sure, but if we come ack to the what can actually be addressed and what can't, it seems like a no-brainer that Sutter has to go.

It's a game with 100s of individual outcomes that determine games.

You can't win the advanced stat war and win every game, but it's certainly indicative.

If you look at the bottom ten teams in the points % right now only the San Jose Sharks stand out having decent underlying numbers but a brutal spot in the standings. But they're ranked 32nd in save percentage.

If you look at the top ten in points percentage the Rangers are the sore thumb. They're bottom third in some metrics but top ten in shooting and save percentage.

You can beat the odds, but when you see 6 of the top 10 teams in most metrics at the top, and 9 of the bottom ten in metrics at the bottom it's a pretty good barometer for the foundation (not the result) of success.

Calgary up to date ...

CF% 2nd (high shot volume)
SCF% 4th (getting shots from the slot)
HDCF% 12th (still upper half in high danger)
xGF% 3rd (shot volume plus decent home plate gets you 3rd)

[Savvy27]

It's fascinating to look back at when the season turned. They opened up really well, going 5-1-0 (only loss to the Sabres in a rough one). The lines were:
Huberdeau Lindholm Toffoli
Mangiapane Kadri Dube
Lewis Backlund Coleman
Lucic Rooney Ritchie

Then they lost a game they should have won against the Oilers and pretty big changes were made. Huberdeau and Lindholm were split up, as were Mangiapane and Dube. Lucic was promoted from the fourth line and Ruzicka started getting some games.

It was a pretty rough stretch where they lost seven in a row but should have won some of those. Losses against the Islanders and Devils stand out where they outplayed them and lost anyways. The lines end up in a blender during that time (Huberdeau was hurt too).

That loss against the Oilers was such a bad turning point. Markstrom had some good performances just before against Carolina and Pittsburgh where the Flames were outplayed and won, then everything came apart.

It's hard to say, even looking back, if the coaches overreacted and changed too much following the loss to Edmonton, but the 6 games that followed are all over the place. I was a bit surprised to see the underlying numbers looked quite good in those first 6 games. Only Carolina and Pittsburgh carried the play against them and they had a big lead on Pittsburgh.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by 81MC

And to be clear, I don’t think the flames players are doing that. Maybe the personal conflict creeps in and is affecting performance, but for pro athletes to willfully underperform because they don’t like their boss? That’s some McDonalds employee level ####, and I don’t buy that for a second.

I don't see any players willingly underperforming. Outside of that Kings loss a few days ago the entire team has put in solid efforts on most nights.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Babcock?

His last playoff series win was 10 years ago so I guess that is definitely closer. He then lost in the second round.

[Yeah_Baby]

Originally Posted by All In Good Time

I suspect a result of “participation ribbon” approach to some degree
Right or wrong
If this keep up
In 50 years the Stanley cup will be 76 feet tall because everyone will get one every year

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I don't see any players willingly underperforming. Outside of that Kings loss a few days ago the entire team has put in solid efforts on most nights.

I think this has been probably one of the most frustrating aspects of this season for me. They're trying, often too hard, and not getting the results. I really expected a return to the mean earlier in the year and it just never happened.

[just_tim]

You can delve deep into management theory, but the world has changed. I’m gonna ramble randomly, but at the basic level, old management practices do not work well in today’s workplace. Beyond that, basic decency is lacking. “Criticize privately and praise publicly” is pretty common sense and not at all Sutter’s way. Steve Jobs famously said “It doesn't make sense to hire smart people and tell them what to do; we hire smart people so they can tell us what to do.” In sports it makes no sense to sign skilled and creative players then coach all that skill and creativity out of their game with a stifling system or a system that, as Muller stated publicly last week, prioritizes shot volume over shot quality. In the case of the Flames, they have a system that is both stifling and shot-volume centric. It REALLY doesn’t make sense to sign a record setting winger and then play him out of position. “My way or the highway” doesn’t work when the the highway is club controlled. Freedom of movement is highly limited other than when a player gains UFA status which takes years of working inside movement-restrictive contracts. And no matter the pay grade, if there is no joy to be found at work, it become drudgery and workers tune out. Average tenure of an NHL head coach is 2.4 years. Sutter has surpassed that.

[Yeah_Baby]

Originally Posted by just_tim

You can delve deep into management theory, but the world has changed. I’m gonna ramble randomly, but at the basic level, old management practices do not work well in today’s workplace. Beyond that, basic decency is lacking. “Criticize privately and praise publicly” is pretty common sense and not at all Sutter’s way. Steve Jobs famously said “It doesn't make sense to hire smart people and tell them what to do; we hire smart people so they can tell us what to do.” In sports it makes no sense to sign skilled and creative players then coach all that skill and creativity out of their game with a stifling system or a system that, as Muller stated publicly last week, prioritizes shot volume over shot quality. In the case of the Flames, they have a system that is both stifling and shot-volume centric. It REALLY doesn’t make sense to sign a record setting winger and then play him out of position. “My way or the highway” doesn’t work when the the highway is club controlled. Freedom of movement is highly limited other than when a player gains UFA status which takes years of working inside movement-restrictive contracts. And no matter the pay grade, if there is no joy to be found at work, it become drudgery and workers tune out. Average tenure of an NHL head coach is 2.4 years. Sutter has surpassed that.

Well said!

[Paulie Walnuts]

You can only push so hard until people turn on you that is the issue here.

Its all about results and he is pushing extra hard on these guys and they are not being rewarded. I don't see a team quitting in the effort department, and they are listening to him and playing his game but he keeps pushing and his tactics are not working.

If you are not being rewarded for all the yelling and screaming and following the game plan what do you expect to happen?

Sutters issue is he is coaching like its 2010 and a roster like the LA Kings. What needed to realize is its 2022 and the game and roster are much different.

He was a top coach, but is inability to evolve and modernize his ways and tactics make him a terrible coach to be around right now.